I am not sure you would need to argue much about that at all.
No doubt in my mind that Hire was a better player. But considering Fletch played about 150 more games, comparing their contributions as players isn’t that simple.
I maintain Jackets is good at his job, it’s been particularly hard the last 5 years, actually probably more when you factor in all the compromised drafts during the expansion years
That’s not quite accurate, if you consider ‘found’ as ‘succeeded with’. Only the 1st 3 are regular players. And of those, Walla was with us for a few years, and Parish was a #5 pick and always going to make it.
Given the draft sanctions we copped, it’s pretty clear that our immediate future prospects of success, and perhaps also Dodoro’s legacy, are tied pretty closely to whether or not each of Langford, Laverde, Francis, Ridley, Mutch and Clarke make it as AFL footballers.
Realistically, I think we need most (if not all) of them to become best 22 by mid 2019 (at the latest) if we’re going to have a finals-worthy team.
Boy, you’re brave.
Exactly, it takes a few years to judge whether he has drafted well or not. But on what we know, if these last two drafts don’t come through then he needs to go in a couple of years.
I think if you look at his drafts 2010, 2011 and 2012 he ballsed it up and rightly should be under pressure. Finding a few wins with mature agers (howlett, hibberd, bags) has essentially hidden how bad these drafts were
2010-2012 hits: Heppell, Daniher, Gleeson
2010-2012 misses: steinberg, browne, davis, ross, kavanagh, jerret, N’OB, Ashby, van unen, kommer and gregory
So his ability to find young talent in the national draft was weak through this period. 3 wins from 14 picks and one of those a father son prospect!
2013 he went 2 from 2 and upgraded dalgleish (oops) but a good night.
2014-2016 drafts we have two confirmed wins in parish and mcgrath. Two serviceable mature agers in brown and hartley. You have eades. The rest are all still question marks: lang, lav, Redman, morgan, ridley, begley, mutch and clarke. If in two years they aren’t proven performers there needs to be a change. We can’t go forward if our we’re not getting it right on draft night.
Yes he did well holding the list together during the saga but chiefly we need hits on draft night and
No doubt F/S selections have helped us. Just as Ablett/Hawkins/Scarlett/Blakey helped Geelong, Cloke helped Collingwood, Liberatore/Wallis helped Bulldogs and Heeney/Mitchell/Mills helped Sydney. We’re not the only team to have benefited.
The simple reality is that the 2012 & 2013 midfields were amongst the top performing midfields in the league in those years. Having a go at Dodoro for not producing a decent midfield, and then saying the good years don’t count because of Watson, is pretty unfair. He knew Watson was there, take him out and surely our strategy changes.
Is Jobe the player of the 00s for us? He did nothing up until 06, and only really became top line when Hird came aboard in 2011. Has to be Fletch, Lloyd or Stanton.
If you drew the decades from 05 to 15, he’s in easy.
Also: a grand total of 2 good F/S players in a timespan of 20? years is hardly a huge catalogue. You can argue that Hird was family influenced, but fact is, he wasn’t a father son pick, and every club missed him 3 or 4 times - he went pick 79 I think.
I maintain its pretty difficult to be shyte for 15 years if you are recruiting & managing your list well. We’ve changed everything else at the club including its location yet we are right now seemingly no better off than we have been for more than a decade. Again that would be hard to do even if you had the rest of the club actively working against the talent on the list. Do people actually believe Sheedy forgot how to coach after 2000 or is it maybe possible that replacing Long with Bannister, Misiti with Bullen , Bewick with Harvey etc etc maybe just maybe saw our list a little lighter on for actual ability?
There are a couple of things you’ve missed out of the 2010 to 2012 drafts:
- Outside of those hits, we also drafted Hibberd, Jenkins and Bags in that period.
- Out of those misses, only Kav was from a pick inside the top 30. The picks he was missing with were reasonably speculative.
- Do we really consider Jerrett & Kommer recruiters’ misses? Given what we saw in 2013, I’d question the development/fitness staff not the recruiting team. Both seemed to have enough talent to make it.
- Given Kav’s early VFL form (according to watchers) he could also potentially be put into that category. Especially as Sydney still rated the talent that if not for the trade ban he’d be a Swan.
I’ll flop it out for McGrath, Begley and Ridley. All three are legit class and the sooner they’re all in our 22 the better.
I don’t quite know what I’m looking at with Mutch and Clarke doesn’t thrill me. Draper is intriguing but a few years off yet.O
Or maybe Rama getting cancer, Judkins forcing a sale of Hardwick/Caracella/Blumfield/Heffernen, and Winderlich being perennially injured all had an impact. Mercuri falling off a cliff was an issue too. Or maybe it was that Dodoro was part time with limited support due to our recruiting budget? I mean, how do you expect great recruiting if you’re main man isn’t even watching kids on the weekend?
And yes, the rest of the club did sabotage the results. Its called “the Saga”. When we were just near peaking, it ripped the club to shreds for 3-4 years. The fitness team being changed every year for the three years before the saga didn’t help either.
People wonder why we’re not better than we were a decade ago, and the problem is that the peak of our hill was cut right off. We lost some of the best years of Goddard, Stanton, Watson, Hurely and Hooker. We lost Ryder, Hibberd, Melksham, Carlisle and Crameri for (generally) unders, we lost a number of top end draft picks, and that is on top of already losing guys like Houli and Jenkins. We lost the capacity to attract more than fringe players, and even then there were preferred options for fringe guys.
In my opinion Dodoro has been in his best form since the draft restrictions set in. Our problem I think is we are still gelling as a side, and we had no plan B when we are denied access to the corridor and linking up our run and carry.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the grunt of Heppell, Zerrett, Parish and Zakka or TBC or Sammy Draper. We can expect much from McGrath and will find out more about The Langford, Lav, Begley, Walla, Raz, McKenna and Colyer as midfielders as well as in their other positions (where applicable).
We do need a clearance beast or two next year to be competitive and this will be very telling. We could have been a chance of the Bont or Cripps without our draft restrictions and things could have been very different.
I would argue that Dodoro’s form is improving and we would be stupid to think about moving him.
Having to play Jobe and other returned players was a part of maintaining the fabric of this club, but now we are at a point where we can move on and to be fair it will be another 3 years before we know where we are at with regards to our list going into the future.
Without the saga we may still have Ryder and Hibberd and maybe Cripps or Bont and a lot more experience playing together as a group and things could be very different.
As things are we are waiting to see what we have in Francis, Lav, Langford and expecting improvement from McGrath and Parish and seeing who else we can get in the meantime.
Patience is required I believe.
Look, I’ve been pretty clear. I’ve said upthread when you and I last got into this (with some very long posts I don’t really want to repeat):
- That I believe the 2012 was poised to compete, he added Goddard, and then got torpedo’d by the saga. So I think he did deliver.
- That I rate his drafting, and believe only a handful of recruiters have been consistently better
- That I suspect - don’t know - that he is handcuffed significantly by our club philosophies. That up until ~2008 the goal was to make finals each year with all that implied. That we were to bring back the saga players. That we would continue to top up and “reward” the players by pushing for finals through 2013/14. If he’s driving those philosophies, fine, dump him. But if not, respect the handicaps he’s working under. As to if he is behind them or someone else, I don’t know. Some came from board level, and others likely from senior management groups including him, the coach, CEO and others.
- That I don’t believe any club in our positions would have got more big fish than he did.
I’ve also been consistent of the view across multiple threads and years that there were certain points I’d have rebuilt by trading out players. Hille and Lucas around 2007/2008. Key players at the end of 2015. Generally, Blitz has been totally against that. Now, Blitz ain’t the club, but I do think in this area they reflect the club belief, that trading out club stalwarts for picks is not “an Essendon” thing to do. So its not like I’ve been lockstep with the EFC list management strategy. I was particularly scathing about our 2014 and 2015 approaches.
You don’t think that’s factored into us not winning a final?
My post was directed at the main draft which is the first crack at the best youngsters. I did acknowledge Hibbo (psd) and bags (rookie) in my post, my concern is his ability to pick young talent.
I take your point about the pick numbers but you can’t build a list only on picks under 30. That’s one maybe two players per year unless you trade out a player of worth. Failed picks over 30 have to count.
As to kav, kommer and jerrett… who to put them on is an interesting question. I actually think kommer should still be on the list tbh. Green kicks more goals but kommer was far better at the chase and harrying aspect of the game. Jerret and Kav misses hurt, that’s 2 outside mids that we needed. But surely kavs kicking deficiencies and jerrets inability to find the ball were apparent earlier? You can’t say kav came right and lost his ability to kick through the ball?
OK so you honestly believe our list from 2002-2017 has been as good as 2000 bar for something to do with Judkins who had left about 5 years earlier (is he your new diversion), and some injuries to players who you are certain would have been the best players ever if not injured. OK, you’re officially deluded. Once again the saga didn’t happen until 2013. We haven’t won a final since 2004. Do you have any explanation for that given you think our list was really good?
Now you really need to find a position & stick to it. Do you want to maintain we drafted, traded & managed the list well OR do you want to use the excuse that Dodoro was under resourced & overruled by others (these mystery men)? You can’t have both. You seemed to be at least coming around to some form of reality that there’s been some issues with his dept but then went straight into deflection to the board, coach & of course the saga. I get that in the absence of any actual evidence you are going to cling to the pipe dream that the 2013-15 flags were a certainty if not for the saga but can you at least address the years before that?
I’ve posted this before but here’s the truth on Dudoro.
For every McGrath there’s a Gumbleton
For every Parish there’s a Francis
For every Zerrett theres a Morgan
Dodoro hasn’t been capable of putting together a finals winning list let alone a Premiership list in THIRTEEN YEARS!
The SAGA excuse doesn’t hold up because he still had 8 years of crap results before hand.
We will not be a finals contender let alone a premiership side with him at the club.
But the usual suspects will come in and defend him and we will be crap for another 13 years and wonder why.
Well said! He is the constant thread since 2000. His results simply don’t hold up.