Adrian Dodoro - Flankers into Mids since 2000 (Part 1)

It comes to a drafting philosophy i think.

Dodoro constantly states he uses the 2nd round area for his project players, and goes safe with the 3rd and beyond picks.

I reckon this is fundamentally flawed, use the 2nd round picks for your safe contested mids because they can a) usually kick ok, and 2) don’t have too many glaring flaws. when you start getting into the pick 60 and beyond you just get too many things to work with and players are generally a toss up if they’ll make it to an afl game, let alone a career. for mine first round is really hard to screw up. 2nd round should be the basis of where good teams separate themselves from the rest and anywhere after that is a bonus.

But i also think our playe development is ■■■■. look at parish as the prime example. he’s as good now as he was in his first season. so hes as good now, as he was when he left a youth system and hadn’t been fully integrated and assimilated into ours…

questions and red flags have to be raised about this. wtf is happening?

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just on this hypothetical, i’d keep joe, if the midfield worked i reckon his internal pressure he puts on himself will be alleviated.

i’d actually think of trading hooker and hurley for mids and giving our young defenders a chance. both hold immense currency. you could also look at trading stewart, as well, who doesn’t want a handy 2nd tall who works up the ground that well.

our list has lav, lang, stringer that can all realistically play 2nd-3rd talls. this is without players like ridley or francis.

Again you only need to look back to when Dodoro started. Our development gave us the 2000 premiership so what changed? Did we develop Davies different to Caracella or was he simply not as good? Did we completely change what we did with the younger players to coincide with Dodoro - did we sabotage his work… deliberately maybe? I just can’t see what we did differently & I’ve never read a credible explanation of what exactly development is or how to quantify it. Now I can absolutely buy that we at times had poorer facilities, I was screaming for the Jackson era of tightarse football management to end so I can 100% believe that lots of things at the club were not best practice. I just can’t buy into the idea that development can let alone would have turned the vast majority of our draft picks into so much more than they were.

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Spot on. Players like Clayton Oliver for example, are much, much more valuable than your parish types. Not a knock on parish, but you can find players like that in the draft a LOT more through rounds than you can find guys like Oliver

Yeah, this is as concerning as anything. We are either picking the wrong players, or ruining the ones we get. Or something in between. That’s simplistic, but looking at other teams from both angles, we seem to stuff up both more than any other teams.

just a counter point, your clayton olivers can also go back to being the lazy unfit player they were before they got their act together. hes like fridge but his switch flipped about 6 months earlier in their youth section.

A huge risk.

I was pretty big on us trying to get ryan burton from that draft but hawks pipped us.

I have often wondered what would have happened if GC hadn’t traded pick 3 or if Melb had picked Weiderman 1st. Would we have gone Oliver & Parish or still gone for a tall?

I have half written a dozen responses to this, because I can’t figure out if you’re genuinely saying that you don’t think coaches can make players better.

You are obviously passionate about this, but it doesn’t change the fact you’re just plain wrong. Melksham was a midfielder. You know who else only average 19 possessions in the Championships? Tarranto. Where did he go in the draft? Second. Why? Because he had a great end of year in the TAC, and averaged 27 disposals in the TAC Cup. Is he now meant to be only a flanker? The championships are important, but they’re not the be all and end all.

Sure, Melksham is playing deeper forward than he did for us. That doesn’t change the fact he spent most of his time with us off a HFF.

Again, putting words into my mouth. I never said it was the best midfield ever.

Doesn’t always work.
Here was my inside mid pick for 1st round

41 Will
Brodie
Height 189 cm DOB 23-08-1998Weight 88 kg Debut -
Games
2018 0Career 3
Goals
2018 0Career 0
2018 AFL Fantasy Points
Total 0Avg 0

Every man and his dog knew getting Mitchell would be good. That doesn’t mean it’s possible. North wanted Martin and Kelly last year, that doesn’t mean it was possible. How much do you think Hawthorn’s success and Clarkson, and oh, no saga counted in getting O’meara to choose Hawthorn? So no, I don’t particularly rate getting Mitchell for pick #14, I think there were 16 other recruiters who would do that deal if it was possible.

If the current recruiting team is mostly the same as the premiership one, then yes, I rate them in the top few. I think the book is very much open on how they’ll rebound now. That team is still propped up by a few older players in 2017, and I’m yet to see them this year so don’t know how much that has continued.

They also have the best coach of the last 20 years.

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Of course coaches can make players better but when the coaches stay the same I can’t see how they can be the cause of such a sharp decline in the players coming through. Again relating to the time Dodoro started did we have a radical shift in the way the coaches developed players - I can’t see evidence of that. Did the person selecting the talent change - yes. Is is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more likley that the talent coming in wasn’t as good - yes, is it feasible to suggest Sheedy & all other coaches at the club simply stopped making the player better - NO.

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I’m not arguing about Dodoro or our situation, I was just baffled by that specific point. It seemed like you were doubting whether player development exists in a general sense. If not, carry on.

Every man (except you it would seem) knows that getting any number of top mids over the last 20 years would be good. We also know Dodoro has failed to do it. The fact that other clubs do it means it is possible so at a minimum that has to count as an achievement for Hawthorn. Everyone knew Judd was a star but again Dodoro failed. You seem to think your lack of imagination of what should be possible is the standard Dodoro should be judged by - I’m using what he’s done compared to you know - the competition.

Well, we lost TD who went to Collingwood, helped make their forward line good enough to play in two grand finals, and then went to St Kilda where they finished in top 4 regularly again. I’ve no idea what other coaches changed, but I’m sure they did. We all know that’s when many of the top sides started spending more, and we spent less. We know that we had later picks. We know the good picks we had in 2002 and 2003 coincided with terrible drafts, yet if injuries hadn’t derailed Winders, Laycock and Dyson, then those 3 plus Stanton would have been pretty damn good players. And most would think that Sheedy stuffed up Bradley and Richard’s development.

And of course, you chose to pick out Davies (in the post above, not the one quoted), who is believed to be a Sheedy pick.

Wow, what on earth changed between pre-2000 and post-2000? Funnily enough, Dodoro was also doing the recruiting while having a match day job. How many other teams were doing something that idiotic?

This doesn’t make any sense. You seem to be implying that any team can just click their fingers and get a Judd, Dangerfield, or Mitchell. Most teams can’t get in star players from other clubs. Those who do usually have some type of advantage. Yet in your mind, any manager who doesn’t has somehow failed.

And you seem to think the Judd deal was a good move for Carlton???

Its more that its completely unquantifiable so really has no place in the discussion other than to try to blur responsibility. If the coaching staff changes coincided with noticeable changes in the younger players development then sure thats a very likley area that needs addressing. In our case we have had numerous changes to every coaching role & still can’t get a side that can regularly make let alone win finals. Is it more likely that all those coaches were the issue or is it the one constant?

Agree.

Edit: this post feels to short for this thread. Imagine I wrote a lot more.

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NO, only clubs that have very good recruiting managers can land these deals. You seem to be completely ignorant to the fact we’ve tried to but failed. And yes Judd was a good move for Carlton, drafting poorly around him was the mistake.

And when other teams keep poaching your players and/or giving them second shots, what does that say about how they rate your quality versus your development?