Brexit


#201

It’s no real surprise that England are leaving Europe early.

Happens every 4 years.

https://fbcdn-photos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtl1/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/13439150_1100289643376952_3834286414866790860_n.png?oh=7a6aab55d3f77654043ded04c213a8b5&oe=580A8388&gda=1476275095_7344016580b71403aef819825493d689


#202

I know it’s not binding but really frustrating to see them dragging their feet on this now. Somebody said that it’s akin to wanting to break up with your girlfriend but keep ■■■■■■■■ her.


#203
I know it's not binding but really frustrating to see them dragging their feet on this now. Somebody said that it's akin to wanting to break up with your girlfriend but keep ■■■■■■■■ her.

Very few people in positions of authority want it. They will drag their feet forever. Then there is all the people that are petitioning for another vote. Democracy soviet style.


#204
Won't be long. Now that car manufacturing is on the way out, once everyone realises Australia doesn't have an industrial sector any more and that those jobs are never coming back, the drums will start to beat a bit louder. Especially if iron and coal prices stay in the toilet in the medium/long term, as I expect they will, and a few consecutive global-warming-driven droughts ■■■■ over the farmers (and Reef tourism) again. An economy entirely revolving around baristas making coffee for property developers and property developers trying to sell baristas new 4-bedroom houses on treeless ex-paddocks west of Melton while approx three dozen billionaire casino and banking moguls eat caviar off the naked bodies of supermodels is not a recipe for a stable society.

Though I reckon the CLIVE PALMER EXPERIENCE might have discouraged a few of such a person’s likely supporters, for a little while at least.

Agree 100%; if nobody is making money, there will be zero demand for services such as coffee making. I would also like to add that economy based on perpetual growth of finite resources is a complete joke; is just completely unsustainable. Western civilization is delicately balanced like a house of cards that is just waiting to tumble down from a small breeze.


#205

Fark me, the Seinfeld gif was 100+mb. Data plan destroyed for this month. Next prick who does that gets punched in the neck.


#206

I Fking concur with that post.


#207

The gifv version is 8mb.


#208

While the delay in invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty creates uncertainty, the UK will need all the time it can get, given the unprecedented scale of negotiations it will have to engage in such a short period. These include not only negotiations with the EU and Ireland, but also with the World Trade Organization on commitments to replace EU-wide commitments, plus any other EU trade agreements with third countries. These will need to be done on parallel. I can’t see the UK entering into new arrangements with third countries until those issues are resolved.
The UK will also need to undertake a massive program of legislative adjustments,
Additionally, it will need to review the assistance programs to regions, industry and agriculture which are currently funded directly from the EU budget. This could lead to more internal divisiveness.


#209

Fundamentally, I’m opposed to the EU and think the decision to leave was the right call but the whole thing has been a political disaster. It’s never been about the core issue which is how the EU operate and how restrictive it is for a member of the EU. This a Torys internal fight that has gone horribly wrong. David Cameron, certainly since I have been alive, took the biggest political gamble of any political career because Boris Johnson put the question of leaving the EU out there. He is totally against the EU, and he harbours a strong desire to be the next PM. Cameron hedged his bets and his job on the resounding Scotland independence vote - people wanted to remain within the UK so he drew a link - the Scottish wanted to be a part of the EU. Then they pitched the campaign at a “racist” level by saying - if you vote to leave, you’re a racist. Then, the cherry on top, promised money that is given to the EU to go be redirected to the NHS. I mean, the lies were everywhere and in the end, it’s irresponsible. The immigration issue is just a small issue inside within a number of the issues but it’s topical - the lefties never let you live it down. It’s an issue that is swamped with negative and emphatic seeking opinions. The campaign narrative was always going to lead to calls for a second referendum because the vote was “too close or divisive.” The real issues with being a member of the EU should have been put at the centre of the campaign but they were not. The issues of sovereignty and policy oversight should have been central to the discussion. The fact that the EU is a monetary union and not a fiscal union. Instead it became this doomsday campaign consumed with populist left views, which frankly is not good for anyone.

Europe is a total abject failure of undemocratic bureaucracy. The European Commission, which makes an alarming number of laws Britons must abide by (perhaps as much as 60 percent of them in recent years), is an unelected body. The European Parliament has no mechanism for repealing laws, no properly organised opposition at all. Plenty of commissioners are chosen to serve only after they have been defeated in their own national elections. Men like Neil Kinnock lost successive elections in Britain, only to get a promotion to the European Commission. At every level, the EU lacks the kinds of institutionalised opposition or checks on power that are the hard-won victories of the people in their national parliaments. You see it in the impotent European Parliament that acts as a rubber stamp for the Commission, or the unanswerable and supreme European Court of Justice. The history of the EU is a history of making countries vote repeatedly on treaties they have rejected until they accept them. When the people of Greece elected a government to save them from the economic calamity that they could not escape for lack of their own currency and central bank, the Germans made an awful example of them. Many of the same people who want Remain to win now argued that it was atavistic for Britain to retain the pound. Has anything in the last decade of economic life in the EU made Britons regret retaining their own currency?

The EU is anti-market, stifling innovation and competition with its regulatory burden and endemic corporatism. It is anti-enterprise, acting in the interests of big businesses that have corruptly captured the power in Brussels through their lobbying and insider deal-making. The EU is anti-trade, locking developing countries out of world markets with its Common Agricultural Policy that subsidies European farmers while keeping their African counterparts trapped in poverty. For example, the EU has three presidents, none of whom are elected. The EU is completely out of step with a modern, open, connected world, instead perpetuating an old-fashioned insularity that amongst many other things prevents Britain’s immigration system from welcoming the best and brightest from around the world. In my opinion, the Brexit vote is a very accurate reflection of where society is at and that has been missed in amongst the knee-jerk reactions. People are sick of bureaucracy that doesn’t accurately reflect their circumstances on a social, financial etc level and if they are given an opportunity to vote for gaining back some fiscal control, they will do it. That is why Donald Trump has been so successful, he has promise to “get control back.” It’s a vote for the anti-elite and I’m glad that I was alive for it.

The next PM of the U.K. has to trigger article 50 immediately. It cannot become a political issue at the next election because there is no going back now - it’s done, the separation has to start as soon as Cameron is replaced.


#210

The EU Presidencies rotate, normally national alphabetically, as do all the Chairs of the various EU committees. It has been a conscious act of sovereignty to not accord the European Patliament too much power.
I don’t get to elect the Prime Minister or Head of State. Nor does the UK voter.


#211

Re Kinnock, he was appointed by the UK, not the EU. In its 40 odd years in the EU, the UK has been involved in developing , proposing and passing EU legislation. After it leaves, it will have EU legislation imposed on it if it wants to trade with the EU in goods and services.


#212

It’s like breaking up with someone and instead of crying they say “ok” and suddenly Britain are like “wait, didn’t you like me, I can change”. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.


#213
Why do I get the feeling that the people on my facebook feed going 'Yay Brexit! Yay Trump! Sovereignty mofos!' (I may be paraphrasing) would be the loudest voices against an Australian Republic?

Reminds me of the "get rid of all regulation for business!

Oh, except anything to do with renewable energy. Control the ■■■■ out of that!" crowd.


#214
Fundamentally, I'm opposed to the EU and think the decision to leave was the right call but the whole thing has been a political disaster. It's never been about the core issue which is how the EU operate and how restrictive it is for a member of the EU. This a Torys internal fight that has gone horribly wrong. David Cameron, certainly since I have been alive, took the biggest political gamble of any political career because Boris Johnson put the question of leaving the EU out there. He is totally against the EU, and he harbours a strong desire to be the next PM. Cameron hedged his bets and his job on the resounding Scotland independence vote - people wanted to remain within the UK so he drew a link - the Scottish wanted to be a part of the EU. Then they pitched the campaign at a "racist" level by saying - if you vote to leave, you're a racist. Then, the cherry on top, promised money that is given to the EU to go be redirected to the NHS. I mean, the lies were everywhere and in the end, it's irresponsible. The immigration issue is just a small issue inside within a number of the issues but it's topical - the lefties never let you live it down. It's an issue that is swamped with negative and emphatic seeking opinions. The campaign narrative was always going to lead to calls for a second referendum because the vote was "too close or divisive." The real issues with being a member of the EU should have been put at the centre of the campaign but they were not. The issues of sovereignty and policy oversight should have been central to the discussion. The fact that the EU is a monetary union and not a fiscal union. Instead it became this doomsday campaign consumed with populist left views, which frankly is not good for anyone.

Europe is a total abject failure of undemocratic bureaucracy. The European Commission, which makes an alarming number of laws Britons must abide by (perhaps as much as 60 percent of them in recent years), is an unelected body. The European Parliament has no mechanism for repealing laws, no properly organised opposition at all. Plenty of commissioners are chosen to serve only after they have been defeated in their own national elections. Men like Neil Kinnock lost successive elections in Britain, only to get a promotion to the European Commission. At every level, the EU lacks the kinds of institutionalised opposition or checks on power that are the hard-won victories of the people in their national parliaments. You see it in the impotent European Parliament that acts as a rubber stamp for the Commission, or the unanswerable and supreme European Court of Justice. The history of the EU is a history of making countries vote repeatedly on treaties they have rejected until they accept them. When the people of Greece elected a government to save them from the economic calamity that they could not escape for lack of their own currency and central bank, the Germans made an awful example of them. Many of the same people who want Remain to win now argued that it was atavistic for Britain to retain the pound. Has anything in the last decade of economic life in the EU made Britons regret retaining their own currency?

The EU is anti-market, stifling innovation and competition with its regulatory burden and endemic corporatism. It is anti-enterprise, acting in the interests of big businesses that have corruptly captured the power in Brussels through their lobbying and insider deal-making. The EU is anti-trade, locking developing countries out of world markets with its Common Agricultural Policy that subsidies European farmers while keeping their African counterparts trapped in poverty. For example, the EU has three presidents, none of whom are elected. The EU is completely out of step with a modern, open, connected world, instead perpetuating an old-fashioned insularity that amongst many other things prevents Britain’s immigration system from welcoming the best and brightest from around the world. In my opinion, the Brexit vote is a very accurate reflection of where society is at and that has been missed in amongst the knee-jerk reactions. People are sick of bureaucracy that doesn’t accurately reflect their circumstances on a social, financial etc level and if they are given an opportunity to vote for gaining back some fiscal control, they will do it. That is why Donald Trump has been so successful, he has promise to “get control back.” It’s a vote for the anti-elite and I’m glad that I was alive for it.

The next PM of the U.K. has to trigger article 50 immediately. It cannot become a political issue at the next election because there is no going back now - it’s done, the separation has to start as soon as Cameron is replaced.

Britain has the 5 biggest economy inthe world, and is similar to #4 and #6. Its not like its Greece.

Seddon Bomber your Paragraph 2 and 3 are spot on. The EEC was OK for a start, but “ever closer union” created a compromised state, in the form of an unrepresentative self serving administration run by unelected elites. The EU as it was was doomed and Britain has done the right thing for the long term but will face short term pain. I hope they stay cool and go through with it.


#215
Fundamentally, I'm opposed to the EU and think the decision to leave was the right call but the whole thing has been a political disaster. It's never been about the core issue which is how the EU operate and how restrictive it is for a member of the EU. This a Torys internal fight that has gone horribly wrong. David Cameron, certainly since I have been alive, took the biggest political gamble of any political career because Boris Johnson put the question of leaving the EU out there. He is totally against the EU, and he harbours a strong desire to be the next PM. Cameron hedged his bets and his job on the resounding Scotland independence vote - people wanted to remain within the UK so he drew a link - the Scottish wanted to be a part of the EU. Then they pitched the campaign at a "racist" level by saying - if you vote to leave, you're a racist. Then, the cherry on top, promised money that is given to the EU to go be redirected to the NHS. I mean, the lies were everywhere and in the end, it's irresponsible. The immigration issue is just a small issue inside within a number of the issues but it's topical - the lefties never let you live it down. It's an issue that is swamped with negative and emphatic seeking opinions. The campaign narrative was always going to lead to calls for a second referendum because the vote was "too close or divisive." The real issues with being a member of the EU should have been put at the centre of the campaign but they were not. The issues of sovereignty and policy oversight should have been central to the discussion. The fact that the EU is a monetary union and not a fiscal union. Instead it became this doomsday campaign consumed with populist left views, which frankly is not good for anyone.

Europe is a total abject failure of undemocratic bureaucracy. The European Commission, which makes an alarming number of laws Britons must abide by (perhaps as much as 60 percent of them in recent years), is an unelected body. The European Parliament has no mechanism for repealing laws, no properly organised opposition at all. Plenty of commissioners are chosen to serve only after they have been defeated in their own national elections. Men like Neil Kinnock lost successive elections in Britain, only to get a promotion to the European Commission. At every level, the EU lacks the kinds of institutionalised opposition or checks on power that are the hard-won victories of the people in their national parliaments. You see it in the impotent European Parliament that acts as a rubber stamp for the Commission, or the unanswerable and supreme European Court of Justice. The history of the EU is a history of making countries vote repeatedly on treaties they have rejected until they accept them. When the people of Greece elected a government to save them from the economic calamity that they could not escape for lack of their own currency and central bank, the Germans made an awful example of them. Many of the same people who want Remain to win now argued that it was atavistic for Britain to retain the pound. Has anything in the last decade of economic life in the EU made Britons regret retaining their own currency?

The EU is anti-market, stifling innovation and competition with its regulatory burden and endemic corporatism. It is anti-enterprise, acting in the interests of big businesses that have corruptly captured the power in Brussels through their lobbying and insider deal-making. The EU is anti-trade, locking developing countries out of world markets with its Common Agricultural Policy that subsidies European farmers while keeping their African counterparts trapped in poverty. For example, the EU has three presidents, none of whom are elected. The EU is completely out of step with a modern, open, connected world, instead perpetuating an old-fashioned insularity that amongst many other things prevents Britain’s immigration system from welcoming the best and brightest from around the world. In my opinion, the Brexit vote is a very accurate reflection of where society is at and that has been missed in amongst the knee-jerk reactions. People are sick of bureaucracy that doesn’t accurately reflect their circumstances on a social, financial etc level and if they are given an opportunity to vote for gaining back some fiscal control, they will do it. That is why Donald Trump has been so successful, he has promise to “get control back.” It’s a vote for the anti-elite and I’m glad that I was alive for it.

The next PM of the U.K. has to trigger article 50 immediately. It cannot become a political issue at the next election because there is no going back now - it’s done, the separation has to start as soon as Cameron is replaced.

Britain has the 5 biggest economy inthe world, and is similar to #4 and #6. Its not like its Greece.

Seddon Bomber your Paragraph 2 and 3 are spot on. The EEC was OK for a start, but “ever closer union” created a compromised state, in the form of an unrepresentative self serving administration run by unelected elites. The EU as it was was doomed and Britain has done the right thing for the long term but will face short term pain. I hope they stay cool and go through with it.

Yeah that’s true but they made a real example of Greece when they considered leaving the EU - I was just pointing out that link. Britain is the 2nd largest economy in the EU, behind Germany. Britain hasn’t made the same financial contribution as Germany and France when it comes to bail outs and they’ve complained or whinged about state sanctioned policy the most - in a lot of ways, they haven’t been serious about being a part of the EU.

I hope they stay cool and go through it as well. Britain just need to hang tough - the members of the EU cannot afford their departure from the free movement of trade - they know this. They’ve said “there’s no saving being out of the EU” but for me, it’s not about saving. It’s about taking back control of your countries fiscal position and introducing laws that match the specific needs of the country and importantly, society. Britain will still have a large prescence in their market, just look at Norway and Swiss. The EU will talk tough because they need to set a tough precedent for other countries looking to get out. France had a poll recently which showed 60% of their population want out of the opaque, self-serving and unelected administration and system of elites. It also infuriates me that the debate has been hijacked by the immigration debate - it’s just so irresponsible and misses the point entirely.


#216

Another interesting aspect. I could never understand how a country could control their economy when they have no control over monetary policy. But it seems there is little control over banks as well. The EU may well be on its last legs.

Italy’s perfect storm could topple the EU
THE AUSTRALIAN11:24AM JUNE 29, 2016
SAVE
PRINT

If Brexit exposed the seething tensions and structural deficiencies within the EU’s “one size fits all” approach to the quite disparate economies and cultures within the bloc, it may be about to confront a challenge that is much closer to its core.

Approaching eight years since the financial crisis, the European banking system remains its vulnerable underbelly and the economies and banking systems of the southern Europeans remain fragile.

Unlike the US and UK, continental Europe was slow to respond to the fissures within its banking system exposed by the crisis, initially trying to paper over the problems and hope that growth would eventually solve them. The weakness in that approach is that economies like Greece and Italy have deteriorated, not strengthened, as have the underlying condition of their banks.

Compounding the problem confronted by the banks in southern Europe, and their governments, has been the eventual approach the European regulators took to shoring up their system.

In keeping with the rest of the world they began implementing the new Basel III regime for capital adequacy, forcing regulatory capital requirements higher, while also introducing a new regime for EU bank recovery and resolution.

That regime started in January last year. At its core is a distancing of taxpayers from bank losses — bank shareholders and creditors, even some depositors, have to absorb losses amounting to about 8 per cent of a bank’s total assets before taxpayers funds can be called on.

Spain acted pre-emptively, establishing a “bad bank” fund financed by taxpayers and the industry to take on the worst of its banks’ bad debts. Italy, however, didn’t and has been caught with a banking system that desperately needs capital but doesn’t have access to it and the government is prohibited from providing it.

The Italian Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi, tried to wriggle around the prohibition by strong-arming Italy’s banks and insurers to finance a fund to acquire bank bad debts and provide capital to struggling banks.

The Atlante fund raised €4.25 billion (about $6.4bn) earlier this year, but in a system with about €360bn ($540bn) of non-performing loans — more than 18 per cent of all loans — that’s obviously nowhere close to being sufficient to stabilise its system.

Brexit has created a fresh wave of pressure for the Italian banks, and an opportunity and leverage for Renzi.

There has been a widespread sell-off of European banks in the wake of the expected outcome of the Brexit vote, with the sector’s share prices down about 16 per cent. That takes the losses so far this year to about 33 per cent.

The Italian banks have been smashed. Italy’s biggest bank, Unicredit, has lost more than 30 per cent of its value since the vote and more than 60 per cent since the start of the year.

Renzi, under pressure from the surging popularity of the Eurosceptic Five Star Movement, is trying to seize the moment created by Brexit and the effect it might have on other EU countries disenchanted with the state of the union.

The aggressively anti-establishment Five Star Movement’s success in Italy’s local elections this month — it won the mayoral contests for Rome and Turin as well as a host of less high-profile cities and towns — is a threat to Renzi and his Democratic Party and to the EU. He is trying to exploit the EU’s fear that Brexit might encourage others and create momentum for the disintegration of Europe and the end of the European Project.

Having previously failed to gain an exemption for Italy from the prohibition on taxpayer support for troubled banks, he is trying again to convince the EU authorities to allow his government to inject about €40bn ($60bn) of public funding into the system, either as capital or guarantees.

The prospect of bank failures if the Italian banks aren’t bailed out would be a political nightmare for Renzi — and very disconcerting for the EU authorities given the potential boost it would provide to anti-EU forces in Italy.

When four small Italian banks collapsed last year it wasn’t only shareholders who lost their investments but bondholders, including the retail bondholders common within the Italian system.

In an economy — the EU’s third-largest — that has shrivelled since the crisis, with a decimated industrial base and high unemployment rates, it that were to recur but on a far larger and broader scale, the prospect of Italy revolting and emulating the UK couldn’t be disregarded, which is the leverage Renzi is opportunistically/desperately seeking to exploit.

The corner Italy finds itself back into exposes both the initial tardiness of the EU authorities in shoring up their banking system when that was obviously the pre-requisite for any prospect of an economic recovery and the crude nature of the reforms it did belatedly implement, which might work if the underlying system was sound at the point of the introduction of the recovery and resolution regime but is dangerously counter-productive if, like Italy’s, it isn’t.

The predicament Italy is confronting within its banking system and the way it interacts with the EU’s rules is another illustration of the systemic institutional weaknesses that permeate the EU structure. It tries to operate and set rules as if it were one economic and political unit, despite the reality that it comprises, for the moment at least, 28 quite distinct and different sovereign states.

As was seen with Greece, when it was threatening a “Grexit”, the EU can find ways to bend its rules when it has to, which is no doubt what Renzi hopes to convince Brussels to do. If he fails, the prospect of Italy opting out of the EU, a far more complex exercise than that facing the UK given Italy is part of the eurozone, would become more real.

For the EU, even the remote possibility that the eurosceptic forces in Italy and elsewhere might be strengthened and encouraged by Brexit has to be defused before it gains real traction.

The plight of Italy, however, underscores how difficult it might be to hold together an uneasy and increasingly fractious union, with rules designed by and for its stronger economies, in a post-Brexit environment where the EU is even more dominated by its most powerful member, Germany.


#217

I think the fact that it is dominated by Germany is a big stocking point. I was told for instance that germany would forgive greece debts if they gave up their islands - probably the only thing keeping greece viable is the revenue from such islands. So is it any wonder there was such an uproar in greece.

But UK would also have a huge say in how it is run as it is one of the more dominant members. So if anything I think they are relinquishing greater control than what they will probably gain.


#218

Its “dominated” by Germany - once a much mocked economy for being staid and ‘safe’ - because they are the only financial muscle capable of, and willing to, hold it all together. If they asked for security from Greece, I’m not surprised. Here’s a country with a public funded pension system that was allowing people to retire at 50 and sometimes even earlier. Lol. Sounds idyllic.

I was really surprised to read that Italy is the third largest economy (presumably now 2nd?) in the EU. And they’re in strife!? Doesnt bode well.

The mutterings within the EU that they need to re-evaluate how they do things says plenty.


#219

Crikey! Has anyone other than Corbyn NOT resigned from British Labour hierarchy! ? Shadow ministers bailing literally just days after being appointed.


#220
Its "dominated" by Germany - once a much mocked economy for being staid and 'safe' - because they are the only financial muscle capable of, and willing to, hold it all together. If they asked for security from Greece, I'm not surprised. Here's a country with a public funded pension system that was allowing people to retire at 50 and sometimes even earlier. Lol. Sounds idyllic.

I was really surprised to read that Italy is the third largest economy (presumably now 2nd?) in the EU. And they’re in strife!? Doesnt bode well.

The mutterings within the EU that they need to re-evaluate how they do things says plenty.

Italy? Wow! If they want to get out of debt they should just put a tax on cigarettes.

I read somewhere that in greece, more people drive Porsche 4WD than those who declare an income of above €50k a year.