Climate Change in Australia (Part 1)

A poor project?

200 wind turbines is every greenies wet dream.

In 2029 the 1480 Mw Yallourn power station starts shutting down one power plant per year and will be reduced to 1170Mw
In 2030 the capacity will be down to 740 Mw
In 2031 the capacity will be down to 370 Mw
In 2032 the capacity will zero.

If the airport train link is constructed on time in 2031 what source of electricity is it going to use?

Last night with an uncommonly good wind Victoria produced 650Mw out of a nameplate capacity of 1760Mw - 36% efficiency.

If not Robbins Island then were?

Wind power is a fantasy.

Bugger, I thought that after you had not replied for three days that the hospital turned off your life support.

Of course it is a poor project. I like local response not transporting energy under seas.

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Explain why it is a poor project.
Isolated location in the roaring 40’s with only cattle, sheep, chickens and ducks to drive mad with the constant noise.

Local communities? a village or a suburb.
Good luck trying to erect a wind farm or solar system in Collingwood or Fitzroy.
As for batteries you have to have excess power to charge them, UNLESS you do what the S.A. government does with their $110 million 100Mw hour battery and sneakily charge it up at night using planet killing brown coal electricity from Victoria at 30c Mw and then flog it off at anything up to $14,300 Mw to the suckers who voted you in.

Greens, Labor, Getup, Marxists, they are all in the same poxy boat.
Say anything, do anything for the ultimate aim.

And yes, I do have solar panels on my roof, 27 of them.
And with the massive 81.3c feeding tariff it pays very nicely in the summer months.
Mind you the average user (family member, pensioners, the unemployed) are paying for it with increased bills.
4.995 Kw system that produced on one particularly foul day a grand total of 343 watts.

Her is the point you clowns are unaware of, miss or deliberately ignore is that it doesn’t matter what the nameplate capacity, the mean or the average output of wind and solar plants is, the only thing that matters is the minimum output.

Interest that given your aversion to higher temperatures and conservative politics you picked Texas.
Surely Washington, Oregon, Nevada, California or New York with their progressive policies would have been more up your street.

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DXxAs I said, I do not like these large isolated wind farms. Great waste of resources, subsidised by Government, huge line losses and just poor outcomes. Prefer all houses in Collingwood, Fitzroy etc to have Solar, small wind turbine and battery.

The word hypocrite comes to mind seeing you have 27 solar panels and return power to the grid. Your feed in rate is higher than Government says is possible, but it could be those drugs altering your mind state.

Houston is where the main market for our key product and where quality manufacturers reside. I will get a pickup and a gun, so come and visit.

Backed up by a Methane Digester powered generator.

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I have said it before and I will say it again, this is the first green scam I was able to get in on the ground floor.

That doesn’t make me a hypocrite it just shows I am honest.

If I was a hypocrite I would be running around telling people I was doing it to save the planet.

As for 'Your feed in rate is higher than Government says is possible" it just goes to show you how hopelessly uninformed you are.

Under the original scheme the feeding rate was 60c Kwh but due to the morons we had in power who insisted that the power suppliers had to meet a minimum target of renewables AGL paid an extra 20c Kwh making it 80c.
Just on 2 years ago out of the blue I received an extra 1.3c Kwh, for what reason I have no idea.

This is a perfect example of what government interference does, especially when it is run by leftwing morons.

My sister-in-law had a house in North Fitzroy, Block measured 10 metres by 30 metres including the front yard.
Not going to get a lot of solar panels and wind turbines on that lot.

As for the methane Digester powered generator I understand you need a large digester tank to hold all the waste from livestock, bit tricky in a 6 metre backyard.
I don’t know how may cattle, pigs and sheep you could run on a block that size but my guess wold be two cats and a Chihuahua.

Well I did die but then I got better just to annoy the ■■■■ out of you, but don’t let that depress you I could be off at moments notice.

So you are definitely against BASSLINK.

It is the only thing that keeps Victoria from blackouts except for the time when the Tasmanian government sold off so much hydro power they ran their dams dry and had to hire massive banks of diesel generators.

Some models not as accurate as they should be?

http://www.drroyspencer.com/2019/08/july-2019-was-not-the-warmest-on-record/

August 2, 2019 :left_right_arrow: 417 comments
July 2019 Was Not the Warmest on Record
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July 2019 was probably the 4th warmest of the last 41 years. Global “reanalysis” datasets need to start being used for monitoring of global surface temperatures. [NOTE: It turns out that the WMO, which announced July 2019 as a near-record, relies upon the ERA5 reanalysis which apparently departs substantially from the CFSv2 reanalysis, making my proposed reliance on only reanalysis data for surface temperature monitoring also subject to considerable uncertainty].

We are now seeing news reports (e.g. CNN, BBC, Reuters) that July 2019 was the hottest month on record for global average surface air temperatures.

One would think that the very best data would be used to make this assessment. After all, it comes from official government sources (such as NOAA, and the World Meteorological Organization [WMO]).

But current official pronouncements of global temperature records come from a fairly limited and error-prone array of thermometers which were never intended to measure global temperature trends. The global surface thermometer network has three major problems when it comes to getting global-average temperatures:

(1) The urban heat island (UHI) effect has caused a gradual warming of most land thermometer sites due to encroachment of buildings, parking lots, air conditioning units, vehicles, etc. These effects are localized, not indicative of most of the global land surface (which remains most rural), and not caused by increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Because UHI warming “looks like” global warming, it is difficult to remove from the data. In fact, NOAA’s efforts to make UHI-contaminated data look like rural data seems to have had the opposite effect. The best strategy would be to simply use only the best (most rural) sited thermometers. This is currently not done.

(2) Ocean temperatures are notoriously uncertain due to changing temperature measurement technologies (canvas buckets thrown overboard to get a sea surface temperature sample long ago, ship engine water intake temperatures more recently, buoys, satellite measurements only since about 1983, etc.)

(3) Both land and ocean temperatures are notoriously incomplete geographically. How does one estimate temperatures in a 1 million square mile area where no measurements exist?

There’s a better way.

A more complete picture: Global Reanalysis datasets

(If you want to ignore my explanation of why reanalysis estimates of monthly global temperatures should be trusted over official government pronouncements, skip to the next section.)

Various weather forecast centers around the world have experts who take a wide variety of data from many sources and figure out which ones have information about the weather and which ones don’t.

But, how can they know the difference? Because good data produce good weather forecasts; bad data don’t.

The data sources include surface thermometers, buoys, and ships (as do the “official” global temperature calculations), but they also add in weather balloons, commercial aircraft data, and a wide variety of satellite data sources.

Why would one use non-surface data to get better surface temperature measurements? Since surface weather affects weather conditions higher in the atmosphere (and vice versa), one can get a better estimate of global average surface temperature if you have satellite measurements of upper air temperatures on a global basis and in regions where no surface data exist. Knowing whether there is a warm or cold airmass there from satellite data is better than knowing nothing at all.

Furthermore, weather systems move. And this is the beauty of reanalysis datasets: Because all of the various data sources have been thoroughly researched to see what mixture of them provide the best weather forecasts
(including adjustments for possible instrumental biases and drifts over time), we know that the physical consistency of the various data inputs was also optimized.

Part of this process is making forecasts to get “data” where no data exists. Because weather systems continuously move around the world, the equations of motion, thermodynamics, and moisture can be used to estimate temperatures where no data exists by doing a “physics extrapolation” using data observed on one day in one area, then watching how those atmospheric characteristics are carried into an area with no data on the next day. This is how we knew there were going to be some exceeding hot days in France recently: a hot Saharan air layer was forecast to move from the Sahara desert into western Europe.

This kind of physics-based extrapolation (which is what weather forecasting is) is much more realistic than (for example) using land surface temperatures in July around the Arctic Ocean to simply guess temperatures out over the cold ocean water and ice where summer temperatures seldom rise much above freezing. This is actually one of the questionable techniques used (by NASA GISS) to get temperature estimates where no data exists.

If you think the reanalysis technique sounds suspect, once again I point out it is used for your daily weather forecast. We like to make fun of how poor some weather forecasts can be, but the objective evidence is that forecasts out 2-3 days are pretty accurate, and continue to improve over time.

The Reanalysis picture for July 2019

The only reanalysis data I am aware of that is available in near real time to the public is from WeatherBell.com, and comes from NOAA’s Climate Forecast System Version 2 (CFSv2).

The plot of surface temperature departures from the 1981-2010 mean for July 2019 shows a global average warmth of just over 0.3 C (0.5 deg. F) above normal:

Note from that figure how distorted the news reporting was concerning the temporary hot spells in France, which the media reports said contributed to global-average warmth. Yes, it was unusually warm in France in July. But look at the cold in Eastern Europe and western Russia. Where was the reporting on that? How about the fact that the U.S. was, on average, below normal?

The CFSv2 reanalysis dataset goes back to only 1979, and from it we find that July 2019 was actually cooler than three other Julys: 2016, 2002, and 2017, and so was 4th warmest in 41 years. And being only 0.5 deg. F above average is not terribly alarming.

Our UAH lower tropospheric temperature measurements had July 2019 as the third warmest, behind 1998 and 2016, at +0.38 C above normal.

Why don’t the people who track global temperatures use the reanalysis datasets?

The main limitation with the reanalysis datasets is that most only go back to 1979, and I believe at least one goes back to the 1950s. Since people who monitor global temperature trends want data as far back as possible (at least 1900 or before) they can legitimately say they want to construct their own datasets from the longest record of data: from surface thermometers.

But most warming has (arguably) occurred in the last 50 years, and if one is trying to tie global temperature to greenhouse gas emissions, the period since 1979 (the last 40+ years) seems sufficient since that is the period with the greatest greenhouse gas emissions and so when the most warming should be observed.

So, I suggest that the global reanalysis datasets be used to give a more accurate estimate of changes in global temperature for the purposes of monitoring warming trends over the last 40 years, and going forward in time. They are clearly the most physically-based datasets, having been optimized to produce the best weather forecasts, and are less prone to ad hoc fiddling with adjustments to get what the dataset provider thinks should be the answer, rather than letting the physics of the atmosphere decide.

Gee, I would have thought you might respond to HMs detailed multi-post analysis of the last dodgy article you posted before you posted another one.

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I don’t necessarily disagree with anything written in this thread, except that theres maybe:
A: other major contributing causes of climate variation that seem to either be ignored or trivialised
B: that the variation/seriousness of global temperatures conveyed by the MSM and certain sectors of the scientific community seem to be very bias, always alarmists, and in no way balanced
C: History indicates climate change has always happened
D: that some of the people involved in the ‘models’ have been shown to be willing to manipulate historical climate data to get the outcome that they need when the model spits out the wrong outcome

Because most of the climate change posters here are so righteous and absolutely certain with their posts (and because they gave Sorfed a hard time when he was replying with legitimate comments)I thought there needed to be some balance (cause its a discussion thread).

So out there in the real world there are plenty of ‘deniers’. They aren’t dumb, they just want our society to be 100% sure before passing judgement on an issue that impacts massively on their futures. Calling those people ‘deniers’ just gets their backs up.

If the world needs to change its current capitalist growth based economics model to something that does not fark the world for future generations…fine lets do that, it makes sense. If we need to get rid of fossil fuel, great cause its gunna run out one day anyway. If we need to bring 3rd world living standards up at the expense of the 1st world fine…just don’t bs me cause like most people, I’m more likely to push back the opposite way and thats what most people do, just ask Shorten & Clinton.

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No there are not. Solar radiation, atmospheric water vapor, volcanic co2 emissions etc etc have been studied to death. They are not causing the current unprecedented climate disaster we are starting to watch unfold. If you can name another proposed root cause for the current global warming we’re seeing, I guarantee it was investigated 20 years ago and proven not to be the cause, and that no studies since then have changed that conclusion.

No it is not. By ‘balanced’, I can only take it that you mean ‘50% what I hear in the newspapers and 50% what the lunatic denialist blogs I read keep saying’. On the other hand, if you mean ‘accurately represents a broad spectrum of conclusions drawn by those who have studied the phenomenon the most and are best informed about it’, the coverage would be very different to what we see now. Real climate scientists (go out and talk to one some time!) are saying stuff like ‘apologise to your kids, get down on your knees and beg forgiveness from your grandkids’. The eeevil ‘warmist MSM’ you despise so much sugarcoats the whole situation enormously. If it was treating the climate crisis with the seriousness climate scientists reckon it deserves, climate would be on the front page of every newspaper, every day.

Never at even a hundredth of the speed we’re seeing now, and even when it did happen at natural, geological timescales, it caused mass extinctions and sea level changes of 100m+. What we’re seeing is a disruption of the earth’s ecosystem unprecedented in severity since Chicxulub, and it’s happening at a time when human consumption is putting unprecedented strain on the planet’s ecology in the first place. All the compasses are pointing due ‘disaster’

You’ve got a hell of a nerve saying that, when you keep posting garbage articles full of transparent deliberate lies on here and then silently vanish when they’re pointed out to you. Ok then, name these nefarious hoaxers and give 1) examples of their wickedness, and 2) explain why any of these overturn the basic fundamentals of climate science that have been known for over 100 years and which have stood up to every possible scrutiny. Oh, and be forewarned, if you post cherrypicked quotes from the so-called ‘climategate’ emails without knowing or researching the context first, you prove yourself as much a liar as the worst of them.

Not that you haven’t long since done that already.

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I was going to make a long reply but HM did it much better than I could.

I have add two points; firstly that no-one on this site has ever said that climate change is totally due to humans. And secondly and most importantly, as soon as you try to legitimise an absolute dill like @sorfed then you fail.

I can make a short one.
You say you’re open-minded.
Open-minded doesn’t mean seeking out lunatic fringe articles, all of the same viewpoint, that you don’t understand and posting them.

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God bless having the “Douchebag be gone” feature back on blitz.

Good to see Extinction Rebellion out in force in Brisbane recently. Any meaningful change has to come from people hitting the streets and demanding action, this issue will continue to get ignored by Government.

Tell me more.

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94% of forest clearing near the Barrier Reef due to beef cattle farming. Zero positives in this. And please no crappy “me burger tastes good but” jokes. We’re doomed.

Just doing a study on practicality of renewable energy and its output in comparison to demand.
Still debating whether to go ahead with my original planned 2 week period or shorten it to the current week with its abnormally strong winds.

Your choice.

Good show on ABC now about climate change - recommended for those seeking some facts and science.