My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.
Which is normal for the rest of the world...
Maybe someone here can give some more professional opinions & ideas but if 25 kids facing a blackboard repeating 1+1=2, 2+1=3 etc etc was how maths was being taught in the past (and possibly still OS) what led to the changes in approach & is there any evidence to suggest it achieves better outcomes? It would seem easy to blame teachers but I was confused just spectating, I'm not sure how the kids fare. I'm sure some kids would thrive in this idependent learning environment but I'm not convinced its the best system from what I've seen & results seem to support that.
It's because there is more to Maths than 1+1 =2. Children at that age are kind of like parrots, they can retain that information, and repeat it, but are they understanding why?
That's why teachers are now being taught "mathematical understanding". It's all well and good for a child to know that 1+1=2, but do they in turn now what 9+2 equals? When the time comes to do random sums, and not just the basic repeated ones, many students will have picked it up and understand what to do. Others won't though, and will disguise their lack of understanding with things they can repeat, but as times goes on they fall behind.
Yeah, as someone who earned fuel and beer money through uni by tutoring VCE maths, rote learning is great for kids learning arithmetic and multiplication tables, but serious maths is more about learning processes and tools, and being able to evaluate a problem and decide which of those mathematical tools are appropriate to solve it. You just can't teach calculus, or stats, or polynomial factorisation, or trig by rote in any meaningful way. They're complex, multi-stage processes and you need to actually understand why you're doing what you're doing to some degree.
I wasn't trying to suggest advanced maths (or advanced anything) can be easily rote taught, my question is, if rote teaching was the basis for most of our (older people like myself) basic learning including those who went on to do more advanced maths then why was that changed & is there any evidence that the changes are achieving better results? Is rote still the best way to teach the basics? What methods are used in other countries? Is it easier for kids to understand more advanced mathematical concepts with or without rote learning the basics first? I'm not sure if advanced math skills are increasing or declining but there seems to be the suggestion that basic standards are dropping (kids struggling to do basic arithmetic). My concern as a parent is that the basic teaching methods have been changed & I'm not sure it its for the better. I would be interested to hear from any teachers who may have either taught both or learnt under 1 method & taught under another to get their opinions on the changes.
My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.Which is normal for the rest of the world...
On that point, I think the main problem in my experiences was that the workload is way too small until year 11. Rather than build it up gradually, they expect everyone to take a massive leap.
All they do is throw around stupid fkn buzzwords like "engaging with the broader curriculum" and "kids need to have fun to learn." They do that for so long that we hardly got any homework until the last few years. Then they start dumping tonnes of work on you. A lot of sudents struggled a lot with time management in later years because they never had to manage their time before.
I did the french curriculum until year 7 (i.e. what kids in France do) and it was vastly different to australian schooling. There was none of the "kids need to have fun" bullshit and the homework just gradually built up each year. That way it wasn't a shock when we were expected to do an hour or so per night by the start of high school.
Personally I think the whole philosophy of playing games and wanting everyone to have fun at school until year 10 or 11 is a bit silly.
Which is normal for the rest of the world...
My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.
What's normal, the wishful thinking of Schools? Countries where night school is basically compulsory don't count ;)
I'm starting to think you're as grumpy an old man as Noonan...
A "Grump off" would be won by Noonan I reckon.
I'd give him a run for his money on the right day though!
My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.
Seriously? Is that all?
■■■■ me, in year 10 we were doing 5hrs a night, and your parents had to sign off that you'd done it.
back in my day, we......
nah just kidding.
I'm starting to think you're as grumpy an old man as Noonan...
A "Grump off" would be won by Noonan I reckon.
I'd give him a run for his money on the right day though!
You're on, you curmudgeonly old prick. But DHJ is a curmudgeonly ■■■■■■■ too.
I'm not nearly the whiner you are....
I'm not nearly the whiner you are....
I'm not sure what just caused that massive fit of coughing.
Just me or does your post have F.A. to do with HM's that you quoted?Wow. When I was at school when we did any complex maths equation, we had to provide not only the answer, but all the steps we took to get there. I guess it's not the same when a calculator does it for you.
Yeah, as someone who earned fuel and beer money through uni by tutoring VCE maths, rote learning is great for kids learning arithmetic and multiplication tables, but serious maths is more about learning processes and tools, and being able to evaluate a problem and decide which of those mathematical tools are appropriate to solve it. You just can't teach calculus, or stats, or polynomial factorisation, or trig by rote in any meaningful way. They're complex, multi-stage processes and you need to actually understand why you're doing what you're doing to some degree.
It's because there is more to Maths than 1+1 =2. Children at that age are kind of like parrots, they can retain that information, and repeat it, but are they understanding why?Maybe someone here can give some more professional opinions & ideas but if 25 kids facing a blackboard repeating 1+1=2, 2+1=3 etc etc was how maths was being taught in the past (and possibly still OS) what led to the changes in approach & is there any evidence to suggest it achieves better outcomes? It would seem easy to blame teachers but I was confused just spectating, I'm not sure how the kids fare. I'm sure some kids would thrive in this idependent learning environment but I'm not convinced its the best system from what I've seen & results seem to support that.
That's why teachers are now being taught "mathematical understanding". It's all well and good for a child to know that 1+1=2, but do they in turn now what 9+2 equals? When the time comes to do random sums, and not just the basic repeated ones, many students will have picked it up and understand what to do. Others won't though, and will disguise their lack of understanding with things they can repeat, but as times goes on they fall behind.
My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.Which is normal for the rest of the world...
On that point, I think the main problem in my experiences was that the workload is way too small until year 11. Rather than build it up gradually, they expect everyone to take a massive leap.
All they do is throw around stupid fkn buzzwords like "engaging with the broader curriculum" and "kids need to have fun to learn." They do that for so long that we hardly got any homework until the last few years. Then they start dumping tonnes of work on you. A lot of sudents struggled a lot with time management in later years because they never had to manage their time before.
I did the french curriculum until year 7 (i.e. what kids in France do) and it was vastly different to australian schooling. There was none of the "kids need to have fun" bullshit and the homework just gradually built up each year. That way it wasn't a shock when we were expected to do an hour or so per night by the start of high school.
Personally I think the whole philosophy of playing games and wanting everyone to have fun at school until year 10 or 11 is a bit silly.
My brother only finished year 12 last year (there is a 12 year gap between us) and I reckon high school is too much crap. Students basically get to dictate subjects and do work in 'fields they are interested in' and stuff like that. Sure they need to learn how to learn, but I don't think that's what primary and secondary school should be all about. Year 12 only just straightens them out but it should be spread further along.
On the flip side though I really dislike how they make the end of year 12 as 'the end of your life if you don't succeed'. This is truly despised by me.
Just me or does your post have F.A. to do with HM's that you quoted?
Wow. When I was at school when we did any complex maths equation, we had to provide not only the answer, but all the steps we took to get there. I guess it's not the same when a calculator does it for you.
Yeah, as someone who earned fuel and beer money through uni by tutoring VCE maths, rote learning is great for kids learning arithmetic and multiplication tables, but serious maths is more about learning processes and tools, and being able to evaluate a problem and decide which of those mathematical tools are appropriate to solve it. You just can't teach calculus, or stats, or polynomial factorisation, or trig by rote in any meaningful way. They're complex, multi-stage processes and you need to actually understand why you're doing what you're doing to some degree.
It's because there is more to Maths than 1+1 =2. Children at that age are kind of like parrots, they can retain that information, and repeat it, but are they understanding why?Maybe someone here can give some more professional opinions & ideas but if 25 kids facing a blackboard repeating 1+1=2, 2+1=3 etc etc was how maths was being taught in the past (and possibly still OS) what led to the changes in approach & is there any evidence to suggest it achieves better outcomes? It would seem easy to blame teachers but I was confused just spectating, I'm not sure how the kids fare. I'm sure some kids would thrive in this idependent learning environment but I'm not convinced its the best system from what I've seen & results seem to support that.
That's why teachers are now being taught "mathematical understanding". It's all well and good for a child to know that 1+1=2, but do they in turn now what 9+2 equals? When the time comes to do random sums, and not just the basic repeated ones, many students will have picked it up and understand what to do. Others won't though, and will disguise their lack of understanding with things they can repeat, but as times goes on they fall behind.
Just you.
My brother only finished year 12 last year (there is a 12 year gap between us) and I reckon high school is too much crap. Students basically get to dictate subjects and do work in 'fields they are interested in' and stuff like that. Sure they need to learn how to learn, but I don't think that's what primary and secondary school should be all about. Year 12 only just straightens them out but it should be spread further along.
On that point, I think the main problem in my experiences was that the workload is way too small until year 11. Rather than build it up gradually, they expect everyone to take a massive leap.
Which is normal for the rest of the world...
My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.
All they do is throw around stupid fkn buzzwords like "engaging with the broader curriculum" and "kids need to have fun to learn." They do that for so long that we hardly got any homework until the last few years. Then they start dumping tonnes of work on you. A lot of sudents struggled a lot with time management in later years because they never had to manage their time before.
I did the french curriculum until year 7 (i.e. what kids in France do) and it was vastly different to australian schooling. There was none of the "kids need to have fun" bullshit and the homework just gradually built up each year. That way it wasn't a shock when we were expected to do an hour or so per night by the start of high school.
Personally I think the whole philosophy of playing games and wanting everyone to have fun at school until year 10 or 11 is a bit silly.
On the flip side though I really dislike how they make the end of year 12 as 'the end of your life if you don't succeed'. This is truly despised by me.
■■■ yes for the last part. Then you've got the "careers person" advising 15-16 yr old children about their future. Fark off. I remember my "meeting" went like this;
Careers person: what do you like?
Typical uninspired me: I dunno, French?
CP: ok you have to score this so you can do French at Melbourne, they don't do it here, there blah blah....
Then of course I didn't get said score (was too uninspired at school), but fortunately I'm not a pannicker and went about things in a different manner. For some other poor bugger however, they would've felt destroyed. Did this woman say "this is a small school, subjects are limited. Uni is massive, it doesn't matter if you don't like your course etc", of course not.... Its these stupid people who help create this environment, used to ■■■■ me to no end when people insisted that I had to do a particular degree because I had to know what I'd do as an adult....
Just me or does your post have F.A. to do with HM's that you quoted?
Wow. When I was at school when we did any complex maths equation, we had to provide not only the answer, but all the steps we took to get there. I guess it's not the same when a calculator does it for you.
Yeah, as someone who earned fuel and beer money through uni by tutoring VCE maths, rote learning is great for kids learning arithmetic and multiplication tables, but serious maths is more about learning processes and tools, and being able to evaluate a problem and decide which of those mathematical tools are appropriate to solve it. You just can't teach calculus, or stats, or polynomial factorisation, or trig by rote in any meaningful way. They're complex, multi-stage processes and you need to actually understand why you're doing what you're doing to some degree.
It's because there is more to Maths than 1+1 =2. Children at that age are kind of like parrots, they can retain that information, and repeat it, but are they understanding why?Maybe someone here can give some more professional opinions & ideas but if 25 kids facing a blackboard repeating 1+1=2, 2+1=3 etc etc was how maths was being taught in the past (and possibly still OS) what led to the changes in approach & is there any evidence to suggest it achieves better outcomes? It would seem easy to blame teachers but I was confused just spectating, I'm not sure how the kids fare. I'm sure some kids would thrive in this idependent learning environment but I'm not convinced its the best system from what I've seen & results seem to support that.
That's why teachers are now being taught "mathematical understanding". It's all well and good for a child to know that 1+1=2, but do they in turn now what 9+2 equals? When the time comes to do random sums, and not just the basic repeated ones, many students will have picked it up and understand what to do. Others won't though, and will disguise their lack of understanding with things they can repeat, but as times goes on they fall behind.
Just you.
Yep, just him.
Where does this assumption that you don’t have to show working, and everything is done on calculator come from?
Not the case AFAIK, nor did HM say anything like that.
Where does this assumption that you don't have to show working, and everything is done on calculator come from?
Not the case AFAIK, nor did HM say anything like that.
Righto. Whatever you reckon stalker.
Where does this assumption that you don't have to show working, and everything is done on calculator come from?
Not the case AFAIK, nor did HM say anything like that.
Neither did Reboot, He was just emphasising the point that you had to show meticulous reasoning for every step, rather than deriding calculators. It was more saying rote learning was useless at that level.
Where does this assumption that you don't have to show working, and everything is done on calculator come from?
Not the case AFAIK, nor did HM say anything like that.Neither did Reboot, He was just emphasising the point that you had to show meticulous reasoning for every step, rather than deriding calculators. It was more saying rote learning was useless at that level.
He's following me around the board doing this in various threads AN. The little fella has a bee in it's bonnet about something.
He's currently relaxing in Hawaii
My brother only finished year 12 last year (there is a 12 year gap between us) and I reckon high school is too much crap. Students basically get to dictate subjects and do work in 'fields they are interested in' and stuff like that. Sure they need to learn how to learn, but I don't think that's what primary and secondary school should be all about. Year 12 only just straightens them out but it should be spread further along.
On that point, I think the main problem in my experiences was that the workload is way too small until year 11. Rather than build it up gradually, they expect everyone to take a massive leap.
Which is normal for the rest of the world...My high school expected 3 hours of homework performed each night by each student.
Yeah... right.
All they do is throw around stupid fkn buzzwords like "engaging with the broader curriculum" and "kids need to have fun to learn." They do that for so long that we hardly got any homework until the last few years. Then they start dumping tonnes of work on you. A lot of sudents struggled a lot with time management in later years because they never had to manage their time before.
I did the french curriculum until year 7 (i.e. what kids in France do) and it was vastly different to australian schooling. There was none of the "kids need to have fun" bullshit and the homework just gradually built up each year. That way it wasn't a shock when we were expected to do an hour or so per night by the start of high school.
Personally I think the whole philosophy of playing games and wanting everyone to have fun at school until year 10 or 11 is a bit silly.
On the flip side though I really dislike how they make the end of year 12 as 'the end of your life if you don't succeed'. This is truly despised by me.
■■■ yes for the last part. Then you've got the "careers person" advising 15-16 yr old children about their future. Fark off. I remember my "meeting" went like this;
Careers person: what do you like?
Typical uninspired me: I dunno, French?
CP: ok you have to score this so you can do French at Melbourne, they don't do it here, there blah blah....
Then of course I didn't get said score (was too uninspired at school), but fortunately I'm not a pannicker and went about things in a different manner. For some other poor bugger however, they would've felt destroyed. Did this woman say "this is a small school, subjects are limited. Uni is massive, it doesn't matter if you don't like your course etc", of course not.... Its these stupid people who help create this environment, used to **** me to no end when people insisted that I had to do a particular degree because I had to know what I'd do as an adult....
Fark I hate careers/course advisers. Based on the advice I got as a naive year 10 student, I wasted a good part of year 11 on two subjects that were well below my ability (applied maths and English for duds FFS), which ended up limiting my options for year 12, and then for uni after that. I have a friend who went to school in a different state and got similarly screwed.