So if we’re cracking down on bail and remanding people in custody all the time if they’ve even been accused of a violent crime, I assume we’ll get serious about compensation for people who spend weeks or months locked up only to have charges dropped or the case thrown out?
So if we're cracking down on bail and remanding people in custody all the time if they've even been accused of a violent crime, I assume we'll get serious about compensation for people who spend weeks or months locked up only to have charges dropped or the case thrown out?
Of course they will get compensated.
How many jails should we build?As many as currently needed plus 20%.
The govt is building more and expanding others as we speak. Bed pressures are full on in prisons at the moment.
Or alternatively we could aim for rehabilitation rather than revenge and end up like the Dutch, who are having to close prisons hand over fist because there just isn’t enough people to fill them. In fact they are now housing prisoners from other countries so they at least have the numbers to keep a few facilities open.
Mind you, the chances of a national mentality that allows off shore gulags would never go for something as intelligent as that.
In someway, I think it’s a bit beyond our control unfortunately. Prisons provide so many rehabilitation resources, activities and opportunities to learn. Some prisons in Victoria are basically farms, they don’t even have a fence. The problem is the situation these people come from on the outside. The parents were/are drug addicts, they have no family, and the only people they know are other ex-convicts. It doesn’t matter what the government does, the only way they can make a true difference is by not insitutionalising those who are just your typical drug addicts, who don’t physically harm others nor traffick serious quantities. Some people commit crimes to intentionally return to prison, because it’s better than the life they have outside. I think this actually demonstrates that prisons are not the “tough” environments that everybody thinks they are.
I suppose here one could make an argument for services outside, which do also exist, however some of these people have been raised this way and know no different. You can plant the idea of a lifestyle change, but they are the ones who have to act upon it. I think the prison population is going nuts due to usual population rises, and then of course Ice…
We put too many people in jail, and a percentage of them become hardened crims, because as you said they form relationships with others, have no jobs prospects or hope and the cycle continues.
On one end of the scale, I am in favour of eliminating creeps like this guy who has just murdered 5 and hurt many. Add in the murderers, rapists and paedofiles and we eliminate the worst, who do not deserve to be part of our society.
At the other end, jailing people for road offences, non-payment of fines, drug using and white collar crime is just nonsense. I worked with a guy who embezzled $600,000 from our employer and another guy who murdered his Wife. One got 7 years jail that other got 4 years; yep the murderer was out first.
No whitecollar criminal becomes a “hardened crim” from prison. In fact, these people often don’t even live in maximum security because they’re not violent, and usually well-behaved. I was referring to drug related crimes and the relationships those people have on the outside, which is part of the reason why they end up in prison in the first place.
Some white collar crims have also nearly sent their companies broke, causing people to lose jobs, they should be in prison as punishment/“deterrent”. That’s still a reasom why we sentence people, and so it should be.
Agree.
There are three primary reasons for jail:
- Keep offender away from mainstream society as he/she presents a danger.
- Punishment and deterrent.
- Rehabilitation.
So if we're cracking down on bail and remanding people in custody all the time if they've even been accused of a violent crime, I assume we'll get serious about compensation for people who spend weeks or months locked up only to have charges dropped or the case thrown out?Of course they will get compensated.
Really? They’re not as things are now, as far as I know. That’s going to get real expensive for the justice system, real fast…
For me the question isn’t about bail laws or magistrates its why our society has failed so many people with mental health issues that they are turning to drugs and driving down the pedestrian malls (extreme example I know).
This guy has done the crime and should be locked up but the bigger issue is how he got to this place and how many more people are we going to see do this because of our lack of support.
PS: Apologies to @“BLOODSTAINED DEVILS” and @Zimmer I have now seen other footage clearly showing burnouts and doughnuts so I retract me earlier statement on page 2 
So if we're cracking down on bail and remanding people in custody all the time if they've even been accused of a violent crime, I assume we'll get serious about compensation for people who spend weeks or months locked up only to have charges dropped or the case thrown out?Of course they will get compensated.
Really? They’re not as things are now, as far as I know. That’s going to get real expensive for the justice system, real fast…
Sorry - you are correct.
Doubt it will get expensive. Most people remanded are found guilty anyway. Last person I can remember is Mick Gatto. There are probably more but wouldn’t be many I would have thought.
So if we're cracking down on bail and remanding people in custody all the time if they've even been accused of a violent crime, I assume we'll get serious about compensation for people who spend weeks or months locked up only to have charges dropped or the case thrown out?Of course they will get compensated.
Really? They’re not as things are now, as far as I know. That’s going to get real expensive for the justice system, real fast…
Sorry - you are correct.
Doubt it will get expensive. Most people remanded are found guilty anyway. Last person I can remember is Mick Gatto. There are probably more but wouldn’t be many I would have thought.
I’d like to see the figures for that.
And are you seriously saying the last person remanded who was found not guilty was Gatto?
We are just technology away from a Judge Dredd situation.
So if we're cracking down on bail and remanding people in custody all the time if they've even been accused of a violent crime, I assume we'll get serious about compensation for people who spend weeks or months locked up only to have charges dropped or the case thrown out?Of course they will get compensated.
Really? They’re not as things are now, as far as I know. That’s going to get real expensive for the justice system, real fast…
Sorry - you are correct.
Doubt it will get expensive. Most people remanded are found guilty anyway. Last person I can remember is Mick Gatto. There are probably more but wouldn’t be many I would have thought.I’d like to see the figures for that.
And are you seriously saying the last person remanded who was found not guilty was Gatto?
Cannot find figures for Australia, but in UK in 2007 there were just over 50,000 jailed on remand for an average time of 3 months, and about 11,500 were found not guilty or charges were dropped. Much higher than I thought. As we have a similar justice system here, it is probably about the same.
The interesting fact I did find was that in Victoria in 2013, nearly 20% of total prisoner numbers were on remand; again much higher than I thought.
It's pretty ■■■■■■ simple really (kudos to the person who developed this... not me...)
Hold on !!!
What about evidence and the presumption of innocent until proven guilty?
Article in today’s Guardian on bail laws is worth a read for background information. Seems that in NSW there is a show cause system in some instances, i.e. why a person should get bail. Whether it works is another issue.
Unbelelievable front page hatchet job on police in the Hun today. I’m not even going to post it as it made me too farking angry.
It's pretty ■■■■■■ simple really (kudos to the person who developed this... not me...)Hold on !!!
What about evidence and the presumption of innocent until proven guilty?
Re: “Do the police oppose bail?”
http://ds2qmv2z5ilrv.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/NWA.jpg
jailing people for ....................... white collar crime is just nonsenseI was with you up to here…
What? People that steal huge amounts of cash, often ripping off working stiffs in the process, don’t go to jail?
What would you propose for a deterrent for it then? Or would it just be a free for all to steal at will?
I didn’t say you do not punish them, but jailing them is a waste. Make them work for a charity, fine them heavily, etc
Nah fk that. Jail, … for decades … and only after stocks in the street for a week.
I worry you’re on the verge of getting punted from the club with this one comrade.
So we put some silly boy or girl who rips off money from their Company or Union in jail for ten years. Money never gets paid back and these non-violent offenders get to cost us tax dollars. Put them to work and supervise them, make them pay it all back.
I have watched court proceedings where a guy who has bashed his partner, broken her nose and face, snapped her arm, broken the AVO more than once, and he gets a six month good behavior bond. The next night he turns up with a baseball bat and bashed her, the kid and a neighbour, then he gets 100 hrs community order.
And you want to put the embezzler in jail, bah !
yes those silly fraudsters tsk tsk tsk cheeky buggers
I’m not all that sure I’d have the “Do the Police oppose bail” there, if at all. And no-one’s ever been falsely accused of violent or sexual crimes, have they?
They’d oppose bail if you’d been arrested for jaywalking.
With people who have prior form, pack your toothbrush, sunshine!
But the primary intent of justice is, or should be, to protect the community. And I disagree with a lot of people’s opinions about jail too. Some people just have to be punished. With white-collar crime, banning the offenders from access to certain things and recovering their assets should be high on the agenda. None of this asset-shifting rubbish.
And to do that, all trusts or companies must have a primary beneficiary, who’s an Australian taxpayer, listed.
We could do with having the community protected from reckless, sensationalist MSM too.
This guy is an argument for the reintroduction of capital punishment though.
Article in today's Guardian on bail laws is worth a read for background information. Seems that in NSW there is a show cause system in some instances, i.e. why a person should get bail. Whether it works is another issue.
There is a show cause system in Victoria too, for certain types of offending and certain types of offenders.
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It's pretty ■■■■■■ simple really (kudos to the person who developed this... not me...)
Funny how eager people are to live in a police state.
This diagram is one of the stupidest and most antidemocratic things I’ve seen in my life. Basically, it’s a license for cops to imprison anyone they like, indefinitely. You’re wearing blue & someone is ■■■■■■■ you off? Arrest them, charge them with something or other, preferably something violent but it doesn’t really matter what, then oppose bail. They’re then locked up for months until their trial comes around, but you’ll withdraw the charges the day before the trial is scheduled so you don’t have to present evidence. Repeat a few days later, or whenever your target starts getting uppity again.
It’s a handy trick, you can imprison someone basically indefinitely with no evidence & no hearing whatsoever, and you can quickly & easily ruin their life simply by keeping them inside until they lose their job & default on their mortgage. That’ll absolutely guarantee that journalists, protesters, defence lawyers, police corruption whistleblowers, and politicians you oppose can be locked up somewhere where they won’t cause any inconvenience for you and your mates.
Holy crap, people, there’s a REASON we have checks & balances in the system, you know.
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Unbelelievable front page hatchet job on police in the Hun today. I'm not even going to post it as it made me too farking angry.
Are you a policeman? Don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody vehemently defend the police like you do.
It's pretty ■■■■■■ simple really (kudos to the person who developed this... not me...)Funny how eager people are to live in a police state.
This diagram is one of the stupidest and most antidemocratic things I’ve seen in my life. Basically, it’s a license for cops to imprison anyone they like, indefinitely. You’re wearing blue & someone is ■■■■■■■ you off? Arrest them, charge them with something or other, preferably something violent but it doesn’t really matter what, then oppose bail. They’re then locked up for months until their trial comes around, but you’ll withdraw the charges the day before the trial is scheduled so you don’t have to present evidence. Repeat a few days later, or whenever your target starts getting uppity again.
It’s a handy trick, you can imprison someone basically indefinitely with no evidence & no hearing whatsoever, and you can quickly & easily ruin their life simply by keeping them inside until they lose their job & default on their mortgage. That’ll absolutely guarantee that journalists, protesters, defence lawyers, police corruption whistleblowers, and politicians you oppose can be locked up somewhere where they won’t cause any inconvenience for you and your mates.
Holy crap, people, there’s a REASON we have checks & balances in the system, you know.
Yep, our bail system’s check & balances are working so well currently…
Perhaps if those checks & balances were applied correctly by someone suitably credentialed & experienced after an extensive review, rather than some part-timer eager to sign off on something before the clock strikes midday for lunch, we would be in a significantly better place.
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