Students of the game will be able to answer this for me.
I have noted that when Blitzers put forward their team selections, some show Joe at CHF and Jake at FF, and others put them vice versa. Seems to me, until just recently FF and CHF had very specific roles. FF played out of the goal square CHF played the arc and up onto the wings the classic FF usually lead out from the goal square or stood back to take the contested high mark. In the game against Footscray, Jake played a classic FF role and kicked 8. Joe was out injured. Seems to me if anything Jake is being asked to take more the classic FF role, ( not Dunstall style FF, more the John Coleman style) whereas Joe is playing the CHF role more. But Jake will also play up to the wing sometimes.
So are these roles being blurred, are we actually playing these 2 players like in soccer as 2 strikers, both playing a dual role of FF/CHF ?
Is the purpose of this mode of play to confuse our opposition, or is it just confusing our own forwards?
How are other teams organising the key position forwards?
To summarise the posts by Ealesy and Henry, "positions" dont actually exist in the forward line anymore, its a "forward group" comprising 2 key forwards and all the rest of them. Right ?
Any player who kicks a lot of goals could be called a “gun forward” so he doesnt have to be a key, doesnt have to play in a position, he just has to be one of the ones who successfully converts lots of forward plays into goals.
To summarise the posts by Ealesy and Henry, "positions" dont actually exist in the forward line anymore, its a "forward group" comprising 2 key forwards and all the rest of them. Right ?
Any player who kicks a lot of goals could be called a “gun forward” so he doesnt have to be a key, doesnt have to play in a position, he just has to be one of the ones who successfully converts lots of forward plays into goals.
A reply to: @Henry’s Angry Pills regarding QuoteLink
'bout 1995 that went out the window.
Sure, Lockett Dunstall Carey and even Lloydy are dinosaurs , but what took its place ?
Buddy / Tippet is fairly close to traditional style that went out in 1995.
No such thing as FF or CHF these days, you simply have “power” or “tall” or “key” forwards and where they play depends on their particular traits and matchups.
They way teams line up their key forwards changes throughout games at the moment. Some teams will rotate one out of the goal square with the other about 40-50m out in a more traditional CHF position, others will set them both up 30m out, others could have them both coming out of the goal square, others have one deep and one up on the 50m presenting a target up through the middle and out on the wings.
The notion of a traditional full forward and centre half forward went out the window long ago, and probably the last you saw of it was us with Lloyd and Lucas and St Kilda with Grehig and Riewoldt and Fevola as a true full forward for the Blues (although they weren’t able to have a decent CHF to back him up).
No such thing as FF or CHF these days, you simply have "power" or "tall" or "key" forwards and where they play depends on their particular traits and matchups.
They way teams line up their key forwards changes throughout games at the moment. Some teams will rotate one out of the goal square with the other about 40-50m out in a more traditional CHF position, others will set them both up 30m out, others could have them both coming out of the goal square, others have one deep and one up on the 50m presenting a target up through the middle and out on the wings.
The notion of a traditional full forward and centre half forward went out the window long ago, and probably the last you saw of it was us with Lloyd and Lucas and St Kilda with Grehig and Riewoldt and Fevola as a true full forward for the Blues (although they weren’t able to have a decent CHF to back him up).
Thanks Ealesy.
Well maybe its because Jake was on fire for 2 weeks , but seemed to me when he kicked 8.1 he played no further than 30 metres from the goal square. A point that I would like to make is that maybe the true “FF” position itself is not dead. Maybe CHF ( whatever that was) is dead.
As I recall Lloydy was never comfortable with the new way of playing and his goal kicking dropped away a lot when he was asked to play the modern power forward role, but he was caught in the transitional time at the end of his career under a new coach.
I just wonder if we might see a return to the more traditional FF role in some teams ( especially us) in the future, depending on whether the output ( goals kicked) is better for a player to play a well defined FF role than a “power forward” role. Jake really can mark. We know that. Mark closer to goal and he can kick a bag.
A reply to: @Henry's Angry Pills regarding QuoteLink
'bout 1995 that went out the window.
Sure, Lockett Dunstall Carey and even Lloydy are dinosaurs , but what took its place ?
Buddy / Tippet is fairly close to traditional style that went out in 1995.
Eh, it's just all gotten a lot more complex, there are set plays and patterns as to who leads where and when. Generally clubs like to have a tall in each sort of zone depending on where the ball starts (say about 60m off the play, 100m off etc) - depending on where the ball starts.
Who is in each spot changes, the players rotate themselves between them with no direct input from the coaches.
When the ball starts in the 50, they've got different set-ups, maybe two deep and one down the line.
It can be instructive to sit and watch what’s happening off the ball, generally takes you a little while to realise what is going on exactly.
Clubs didn’t want to be dependent on one or two players kicking 60%,70%, 80% of their score.
If you are reliant on a couple of blokes kicking a wining score what happens those weeks these players play poorly, or what happens to a season if this blokes are injured and ruled out for the season?
It’s why coaches and media types crap on about the spread of goalkickers. I mean even in 2000 when Lloyd cracked the ton, the side was so good we still had 12-14 goalkickers most weeks.
A reply to: @Henry's Angry Pills regarding QuoteLink
'bout 1995 that went out the window.
Sure, Lockett Dunstall Carey and even Lloydy are dinosaurs , but what took its place ?
Buddy / Tippet is fairly close to traditional style that went out in 1995.
Eh, it's just all gotten a lot more complex, there are set plays and patterns as to who leads where and when. Generally clubs like to have a tall in each sort of zone depending on where the ball starts (say about 60m off the play, 100m off etc) - depending on where the ball starts.
Who is in each spot changes, the players rotate themselves between them with no direct input from the coaches.
When the ball starts in the 50, they've got different set-ups, maybe two deep and one down the line.
It can be instructive to sit and watch what’s happening off the ball, generally takes you a little while to realise what is going on exactly.
Thanks. Henry, well put. Yes I have watched this in games. The forwards all start together after each goal in a group about 30-35 metres directly out from the goal. All the same number of defenders or +1 stay close. Then when the ball is bounced, the forwards head off in all directions . No way you will see this on TV. Its a lot more difficult to see how they set up for throw ins in the forward half.
Clubs didn't want to be dependent on one or two players kicking 60%,70%, 80% of their score.
If you are reliant on a couple of blokes kicking a wining score what happens those weeks these players play poorly, or what happens to a season if this blokes are injured and ruled out for the season?
It’s why coaches and media types crap on about the spread of goalkickers. I mean even in 2000 when Lloyd cracked the ton, the side was so good we still had 12-14 goalkickers most weeks.
Agreed. look at Hawthorn. They have so many ways to kick goals, and 3 really good forwards who kick about 200 goals between them.
So what we are talking about is not Key Position Forwards but Key Forwards. ?
One often quoted statement is that CHF is the most difficult position on the field. I suppose its a matter of balance. Do you want 2 average CHFs or one good FF and an average CHF? In the case of Sydney, they seem to line up Tippett up most of the time as a FF and Buddy as a “CHF”, Hawthorn , I havent seem much of them , but Roughead seems to be playing more the FF role, while Bruest and Gunston seem to share other key forward roles. ?
I wouldn’t say that Roughead plays full forward more than any other role. Sure he spends time in the goalsquare, but he also spends time roaming around the entire 50m arc, and other times where he roams even further up the ground.
They even seem to push him into the midfield for sharp short bursts on occasions and can use him as a mobile pinch hitting ruck on occasions as well.
A reply to: @Henry’s Angry Pills regarding QuoteLink
The moment you call Breust a key forward is the moment you should probably stop typing
Here we have an argument over semantics. Not one of our “key forwards” kicked any where near Breusts goal tally in 2014. He was among the top 3 goal kickers at that club. To me, he is a “key forward”. Maybe not in the old terms a “key position forward”
but we just got through the whole explanation of how the whole key position thing is out of Jurassic Park. To me , a key forward is one who kicks over 50 goals a year. We didnt have one, short or tall in 2014.
A reply to: @Henry's Angry Pills regarding QuoteLink
The moment you call Breust a key forward is the moment you should probably stop typing
Here we have an argument over semantics. Not one of our “key forwards” kicked any where near Breusts goal tally in 2014. He was among the top 3 goal kickers at that club. To me, he is a “key forward”. Maybe not in the old terms a “key position forward”
but we just got through the whole explanation of how the whole key position thing is out of Jurassic Park. To me , a key forward is one who kicks over 50 goals a year. We didnt have one, short or tall in 2014.
No, you just got through the whole explanation of how full forward and centre-half forward don't mean the same as they used to.
That doesn’t mean Stevie J all of a sudden becomes a key position player if he kicks more than 50 goals.
A reply to: @Henry's Angry Pills regarding QuoteLink
The moment you call Breust a key forward is the moment you should probably stop typing
Here we have an argument over semantics. Not one of our “key forwards” kicked any where near Breusts goal tally in 2014. He was among the top 3 goal kickers at that club. To me, he is a “key forward”. Maybe not in the old terms a “key position forward”
but we just got through the whole explanation of how the whole key position thing is out of Jurassic Park. To me , a key forward is one who kicks over 50 goals a year. We didnt have one, short or tall in 2014.
No, you just got through the whole explanation of how full forward and centre-half forward don't mean the same as they used to.
That doesn’t mean Stevie J all of a sudden becomes a key position player if he kicks more than 50 goals.
OK, the argument is not about full forward and centre half forward, (these “key positions” that actually dont exist any more), its about my use of the expression “key forward” not worth arguing about really.
Heres the test of who is a “key forward”. A forward gets injured, and as a result the club has difficulty finding a replacement who can kick as many goals per match. Short or tall, that person is a key forward to that team. Nuf said.
No, that’s a focal point of said forward line. Listen to media (or don’t), ex-players, even current players if they use the term they still use the term key position to mean the big tall guy who usually has a partner.
Breust is not a “key position player” because despite the role of talls having changed a lot over the last 20+ years it still refers to the (usually) 4 tall guys on the field. If you want to argue the talls shouldn’t be called KPPs anymore because they no longer have the same impact they once did then that’s fine, but that a different argument. Anachronistic or not, key position still refers to talls, not just “gun” players.
No, that's a focal point of said forward line. Listen to media (or don't), ex-players, even current players if they use the term they still use the term key position to mean the big tall guy who usually has a partner.
Breust is not a “key position player” because despite the role of talls having changed a lot over the last 20+ years it still refers to the (usually) 4 tall guys on the field. If you want to argue the talls shouldn’t be called KPPs anymore because they no longer have the same impact they once did then that’s fine, but that a different argument. Anachronistic or not, key position still refers to talls, not just “gun” players.
Key position refers to the players who create the play. Whether it’s the tall timber in the goalsquare or the guy making 40 leads a quarter forcing the defenders to follow him up the ground. The fact that someone is very good at being a part of the play (i.e. crumbing) or exploiting the play (i.e. leading into the gaps created by the key position players) doesn’t make them a key position player.
That’s why Alwyn Davey was a KPP but Luke Bruest isn’t.