excuse me
sorry
>Quoted PostThe only actual capitalist countries are more commonly referred to as āfailed statesā.After that, weāre just talking about degrees of socialism. Which makes right-wingers in America so funny with their diatribes against āitā.
My 2 bobs worth.
David Graeber, a writer I admire immensely, argues that basic communism (each according to capacities and needs) provides the stability and security necessary for effective social and economic relationships and is fundamental to all working social systems, historical and modern. Look at the outrage that the recent threat to water down our basically socialist health system has engendered. Medicare is about as communistic as we get and most want to keep it that way because it provides a communal sense of security and stability against the threat of ill health.
Graeber also writes āThe surest way to know that one is in the presence of communistic relations is that not only are no accounts taken, but it would be considered offensive, or simply bizarre, to even consider doing so.ā Iāve worked in supposedly incentive based environments and even there I found people regularly went out of their way to help others and if you said āI owe youā the genuine response was āforget itā. One Italian workmate who used to give me a lift home gave me a dead set serve when I offered him money, and he wasnāt acting, he was genuinely insulted that I thought that his action was conditional. I was in need and he could help, that was all there was to it.The best and most effective workplaces for me have always been essentially communistic, if someone needs help and you can provide it you do it. And you donāt do it because itās more productive, even though it probably is, itās much more instinctual or habitual.
Graeberās not talking about āCommunist Governmentsā or the āUSSRā, and I donāt even think itās ideology, I think itās more fundamental than that. Itās the glue at the core of basic family and community relations, always has been and probably always will be.
Now Governments, thatās another thing altogether.
Great comments.
Many years ago, when I had a quest for knowledge, I studied European History at a Uni in Melbourne. We spent a semester studying the Paris Commune of 1871, which our lecturer argued is the only successful anarchist state to ever exist, albeit just for a few months.
The concept of everyone sharing their skills collectively and individually has always appealed to me, and having a society run without Government has its appeal.
I have to admit that in my Town, where the community comes together to build a community project, we all seem to work together and co-relate much better that in the normal life and work mode.
why canāt we delete anymore? sorry for the above multiple copies of one post
Did you ever read the "Valve New Employee Handbook"? (easily found in Google). Described how the workers there pretty much control what is done - employees gravitate to the projects least likely to ensure success, pay is determined by the workers, etc.The extent they took it to could really only work with a company like Valve, where they have the best. It describes a truly participatory organisation where everyone is assumed equal and their value is determined by the quality of their ideas/input.
Iām personally of the belief all organisations should work in a modified version of this. We talk about our ācorporate leadersā but they arenāt leaders, they are dictators. Iād love a system where the workers owned the organisation and all had a part in deciding itās direction. Leaders would still be there to come up with the vision, but in the end the workers decide whether to follow it or not, and success or failure rests on everyones shoulders.
Iāve done a bit of reading on some alternative systems - parecon, various anarchic theories, etc. Iām not sold on the value of revolution to bring about this change. I think the best way to make this change is at the roots level - get more groups starting up co-ops, visionary employers creating equity schemes and getting true worker involvement, etc. Have organisational success determined by the quality of the organisation not the power of its capital.
Look up & into the story of Fletcher Jones.
Quoted Post>Quoted PostThe only actual capitalist countries are more commonly referred to as āfailed statesā.After that, weāre just talking about degrees of socialism. Which makes right-wingers in America so funny with their diatribes against āitā.
My 2 bobs worth.
David Graeber, a writer I admire immensely, argues that basic communism (each according to capacities and needs) provides the stability and security necessary for effective social and economic relationships and is fundamental to all working social systems, historical and modern. Look at the outrage that the recent threat to water down our basically socialist health system has engendered. Medicare is about as communistic as we get and most want to keep it that way because it provides a communal sense of security and stability against the threat of ill health.
Graeber also writes āThe surest way to know that one is in the presence of communistic relations is that not only are no accounts taken, but it would be considered offensive, or simply bizarre, to even consider doing so.ā Iāve worked in supposedly incentive based environments and even there I found people regularly went out of their way to help others and if you said āI owe youā the genuine response was āforget itā. One Italian workmate who used to give me a lift home gave me a dead set serve when I offered him money, and he wasnāt acting, he was genuinely insulted that I thought that his action was conditional. I was in need and he could help, that was all there was to it.The best and most effective workplaces for me have always been essentially communistic, if someone needs help and you can provide it you do it. And you donāt do it because itās more productive, even though it probably is, itās much more instinctual or habitual.
Graeberās not talking about āCommunist Governmentsā or the āUSSRā, and I donāt even think itās ideology, I think itās more fundamental than that. Itās the glue at the core of basic family and community relations, always has been and probably always will be.
Now Governments, thatās another thing altogether.Great comments.
Many years ago, when I had a quest for knowledge, I studied European History at a Uni in Melbourne. We spent a semester studying the Paris Commune of 1871, which our lecturer argued is the only successful anarchist state to ever exist, albeit just for a few months.
The concept of everyone sharing their skills collectively and individually has always appealed to me, and having a society run without Government has its appeal.
I have to admit that in my Town, where the community comes together to build a community project, we all seem to work together and co-relate much better that in the normal life and work mode.
A novel, but still very thought provoking, can be read at http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.php. A tale of anarchy that works.
āThe problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peopleās money [to spend].ā
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."
I put Socialism in the title to ensure you would not post. Guess I was wrong.
And you are wrong about socialist economies, they never run out of money, in fact money can become superfluous.
Money is just a symbol. Itās just there to make trade easier. Doesnāt help worker participation though. And except for the lucky few it doesnāt help worker mobility either.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."
So you and Rita Panahi keep saying. Itās factually incorrect.
I like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debtā¦ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear.
investment properties debt is still held.
then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid no more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.
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Wiping debtā¦ yeah nah. The banks donāt hold the debt, they just manage it for other peopleā¦ Sort ofā¦ Either way how is it fair that some new person taking out a 95% loan on a property getās their debt wiped but the person saving up for a 20% deposit loses their savings in the process?
Restricting wages? yeah nah. Put control into the hands of the workers and if the workers want to pay someone 100x what they get itās their informed choice.
Believing in socialism does not necessarily mean we stop valuing contribution. There are some forms that might, but not all. Of those that do there are plenty of ways to calculate that value also - some Parecon proponents think it is a product of danger, undesireability and effort (i.e. someone cleaning toilets should be compensated more than someone photographing swimsuit models as one is more desirable (to some) than the other. Someone working 12 hours to make a widgit should get more than some highly gifted works an hour a day for the same output as one has expended more effort and shouldnāt be penalised because of things out of their control), others (like me) think it should be determined by the co-operative (i.e. if the models want the photographer to get paid heaps, good for them. If someones output is 12 times another persons and their colleagues value them more, good for them).
I like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debt....ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear. investment properties debt is still held.then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.
Wiping domestic debtā¦reallyā¦so only those with debt benefit, those that have worked hard and cleared their debt get nothing, thats fair.
And you really think that a CEO should only earn 10x what the lowest paid worker gets, thats ludicrous, if I risk everything to start a business, work 100hr weeks for years on end to make it successful and then finally get into a position to reap the rewards of my hard work and I canātā¦fuggetaboutit
Quoted PostI like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debt....ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear. investment properties debt is still held.then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.Wiping domestic debtā¦reallyā¦so only those with debt benefit, those that have worked hard and cleared their debt get nothing, thats fair.
And you really think that a CEO should only earn 10x what the lowest paid worker gets, thats ludicrous, if I risk everything to start a business, work 100hr weeks for years on end to make it successful and then finally get into a position to reap the rewards of my hard work and I canātā¦fuggetaboutit
CEO s dont build a business
workers do
Quoted PostQuoted PostI like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debt....ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear. investment properties debt is still held.then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.Wiping domestic debtā¦reallyā¦so only those with debt benefit, those that have worked hard and cleared their debt get nothing, thats fair.
And you really think that a CEO should only earn 10x what the lowest paid worker gets, thats ludicrous, if I risk everything to start a business, work 100hr weeks for years on end to make it successful and then finally get into a position to reap the rewards of my hard work and I canātā¦fuggetaboutit
CEO s dont build a business
workers do
No workers work in a business, the CEO or rather a good CEO should build and grow the business to the benefit of everyone, from the workers to society as a whole. Unfortunately there has been a spate of shonky CEOās driven by short term contracts driving for short term profits as opposed to long term goals that benefit everyone, but thats a whole other discussion.
Quoted PostI like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debt....ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear. investment properties debt is still held.then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.Wiping domestic debtā¦reallyā¦so only those with debt benefit, those that have worked hard and cleared their debt get nothing, thats fair.
And you really think that a CEO should only earn 10x what the lowest paid worker gets, thats ludicrous, if I risk everything to start a business, work 100hr weeks for years on end to make it successful and then finally get into a position to reap the rewards of my hard work and I canātā¦fuggetaboutit
You have to think outside the box.
If debt got wiped, but you had none it would not hurt you. If interest rates go up and debts are called in and debtors default then maybe house prices crash hurting you.
We are all schooled to be winners and individual, maybe it should be about the Team. When Jobe won a Brownlow, do you reckon any Teamates lamented that he had stopped them winning it ?
Self interest and selfishness are not good characters traits, if everyone does good then I would be happy.
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Quoted PostQuoted PostI like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debt....ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear. investment properties debt is still held.then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.Wiping domestic debtā¦reallyā¦so only those with debt benefit, those that have worked hard and cleared their debt get nothing, thats fair.
And you really think that a CEO should only earn 10x what the lowest paid worker gets, thats ludicrous, if I risk everything to start a business, work 100hr weeks for years on end to make it successful and then finally get into a position to reap the rewards of my hard work and I canātā¦fuggetaboutit
CEO s dont build a business
workers do
huh?
alot of CEOs have been internally promoted from a very junior position - so yes they have built the business
there seems to be an unfair view of CEOs here
Wiping debt could only work if you also wipe the ownership of whatever assets those debts were accrued for.
Quoted PostQuoted PostQuoted PostI like the idea of the banks wiping Domestic debt....ie anyone with a mortgage on their home loan is clear. investment properties debt is still held.then the banks could burst the bubble on house valuations. without crippling the economy.
I also like the idea that the highest paid employee cant be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid workerā¦would be good if ASX could implement something within these lines.
ie if CBA call centre work base wage is 50K. ā¦then CBA CEO can only be paid 500Kā¦unless they increase everyones wage from the bottom up. Also may decrease companys incentives to get work done overseasā¦if they have to pay employees fair wages.Wiping domestic debtā¦reallyā¦so only those with debt benefit, those that have worked hard and cleared their debt get nothing, thats fair.
And you really think that a CEO should only earn 10x what the lowest paid worker gets, thats ludicrous, if I risk everything to start a business, work 100hr weeks for years on end to make it successful and then finally get into a position to reap the rewards of my hard work and I canātā¦fuggetaboutit
CEO s dont build a business
workers do
huh?
alot of CEOs have been internally promoted from a very junior position - so yes they have built the business
there seems to be an unfair view of CEOs here
Perhaps the view is that some CEOs are paid a lot more than they are due. The AFL seem to me overpaid Vlad for years.
I know a lot of CEOs and most live and breath their job, work really hard, and get very well paid if they return a big profit to the shareholder in terms of share value or dividend.
However while they are good guys in most part and most support the mighty Bombers, workers who are the lifeblood of their organisation are not the highest priority.
Wiping debt could only work if you also wipe the ownership of whatever assets those debts were accrued for.
Nope, I still reckon people need to be rewarded for effort, so I would encourage ownership of homes. Have a different view about the means of production though.