Would be happy to land any one of Boyse, Hind, Younan or Darby from our VFL players.
I canāt be bothered answering each point because all of it is based on what you think should happen and not what is coming from the club.
I think we all know why we havenāt had much luck with trades in the last 5 years and yet you are rambling on about it.
Ironically the last time we were in a good position we landed Goddard. So rewrite history any way you like but the facts are the facts! If I were a player I wouldnāt want to come to the club but yet we were still atracting players.
As I said above, the club is returning to a good position and we will continue to strengthen the list. Iām sorry that itās not with the players you want but Iām content with the direction the club is going in.
I have said before and I will say it again, we will continue to improve over the next couple of years and will be competing for flags.
If you donāt agree just say it! Fencesitters like yourself are just looking for a reason to sook but then when we are on the rise you will be the first to say that you thought we were coming good. Just stop your whining and tell everyone you think the club is f@#ked.
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Well that escalated quicklyā¦
I could see the direction of the conversation was going so I made it easy for you.
I think we are in very good shape and the direction of the list development team suits our list demographic well.
We arenāt ready to take on big contracts and need to continue to add depth.
You think we are f#*ked.
I gave your reply the courtesy of a considered response, and explained my position.
Thats called engaging in discussion.
You chucked a wobbly.
No skin off my nose mate, as you were.
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Fair enough, I apoligise.
Iāve just seen where these discussions go though.
An acknowledgement needs to be made on your behalf that our club has been in trouble for the last 5 years and that would efffect getting big name players. You didnāt acknowledge that and then just said that we donāt go hard enough and itās more than just $$$ that gets a player over the line. Exactly my point! Our club has been in turmoil so what makes you think players will come to us if itās not for money?
Then I counter your argument about the other sides that you mentioned by saying they are ā ā ā ā but you tell me they have out performed us. So what! We are above them all now and clearly have lots more improvement.
If you want a civilised discussion at least do me the courtesy of playing on a level playing field.
All good.
The Saga handicapped us. No doubt about that.
Personally I think we wanted both OāMeara and Kelly (both post-saga examples), but it seems we still couldnāt get it done.
I donāt think itās about ānot going hard enoughā but I do think we have enough of a (negative) form-line when it comes to attracting quality players that we need to understand where we keep coming up short.
The Saga is an obvious factor, but we struggled for a long time before that also so there is potentially more to it than just the last 4 years.
In any case my underlying position is that I think we are leaving a lot of potential improvement (and speed of improvement) on the table through our inability to target and land the players we want.
Drafting is a long game and it often takes 4-5 years to see whether a draft was a success or not.
With our list and age demographics the way we are, I think we need to see some big wins quickly to capitalise on the youth of JD, McG, Zerrett, Walla, Fanta, Irish, Hepp and the prime remaining years of Zaka, Hurley, Hooker and maybe Bags.
Fingers crossed.
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Something to add to that - gun players changing teams is becoming more and more frequent, for a number of reasons. It has bearing on the past and future with regards to our trading.
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The environment does seem to be changing in that regard so maybe that makes our trade history a lot less relevant.
Iāve said before that I believe we only need that first significant pin to fall our way and it will be a game changer for us both on and off the field, but ā ā ā ā ā ā ā if that pin isnāt a mother******* to knock over.
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I agree with what you are saying fundamentally but what I canāt agree with is having to land the biggish. Hawthorn added smart pieces throughout their build and thatās what enabled them to stay at the top. Geelong were primarily a draft and develop club until recently and Iām sure thatās to try and capatilise on the list they have.
Richmond I can assume would have paid overs for Prestia and Caddy and now again a lot of coin on Martin. Letās see how that pans out for them.
I like the Hawks and Geelong model of getting all the quality on your list through the draft and then when you are regularly competing in the finals start adding pieces. The benefit of that is you have guys wanting to join your club to play for remierships so you can negotiate their wages and keep your list intact.
Sorry for snapping at you.
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Guys. With the exception of typical Internet debates being hard to contextualise that was good to read. Thanks to both for having interesting points.
Can I add.
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I donāt put to much stake in past trade woes with regard to the future.if we had if got OāMeara and paid big coin weād all be lamenting that he is still injured and getting paid big bucks. So in my view that is a lucky escape to date.
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Kelly, who knows whether he is leaving or not though. What I would say though is we never get the true story of salary mechanics. If say Carlton offered him 10+M over 7 years and we missed out because we had our best offer at 8.5M then so be it. Smart mgmt. Thatās not a fail. A fail is when you win the player but pay massive overs and hurt your club ala Daisy Thomas or when you undervalue one if your players and let them go ala Eddie Betts. Donāt make assumption re: cap mgmt. Media are full of ā¦
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This is an interesting point.
Benefits of the ābig fishā are obvious, but the lesser lights are often where the gold is.
My view on these other strategic acquisitions is that we are behind a couple of other clubs in identifying underrated or under-utilised talent on other lists and getting them across.
I think one of the factors that also hinders us is our ādraft and developā seems tied to a āhold and donāt tradeā mentality. Thereās pros and cons to that too. You might get loyalty (and a willingness to accept less $$$), but you could also get raided.
If you look at recent examples, it wasnāt long ago that we had an embarrassment of tall riches. Ryder, Jenkins and Carlisle is almost a goal to goal line in itself.
Its a bit of a cycle, but if you are unwilling or unable to trade, then you are always drafting and developing.
What might have been possible if we traded one proactively? Could we have got into the GWS mini draft? Maybe into the top 3 of a draft with a Bont-type talent?
Lets see what the off-season brings.
Disco may pull out a rabbit that leaves us all scratching our heads.
I hope he does.
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I think Stewart is a good example of finding the right piece.
Unfortunately any discussion around Carlisle, Hibberd and these guys is very hard to assess. They left the club for reasons that are well known and I have moved on.
I really like our current list and for mine this offseason and more importantly next season will tell us most about where we stand.
We know the older guys are gone and now we need to know how good Langford, Laverde, Begley and a few others are.
We know we have some very high-end, young talent on the list but for mine we need at least two others to step up and announce himself. Iām extremely confident that both Langford and Begley can do that.
That should propell us into the finals again and from there I believe the club will start to earn some credits.
Next year I believe we will get more Friday night matches and that will be one step to help make the club more attractive.
I would think a Balic or some other young mid that would cost nothing could be good value but then next year we attract somebody to fill a gap. We will know a lot more about our list and will be in a stronger position to attract somebody good.
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I think getting a decent young mid ala Kenney, or a Balic and then going for a contested bull like Rockliff would be good business this year, if the talk is true and Kelly is staying, then that would be the optimal outcome. If heās leaving throw the farking kitchen sink at the bloke.
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Doubt weād attract anyone from another clubs best 22 until we win a final.
Thatās a good point, beat Sydney on their home deck and look very appealing to a quality player that is weighing up their options, itās more than a final this week in so many ways.
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I must say I get a bit tired of all this talk about our inability to land a big fish. Iām happy for us to have a crack at the big names when they become available, but not at any cost. Iād have taken on Martin at a million a year, but 1.2 is too much. We donāt know the story with Kelly (and Iām tipping heāll stay at GWS), but again, Iām happy for us to put a reasonable offer for him, but if others choose to pay overs then let them.
We have to be mindful of the salary cap, and be flexible enough to be able to bid on other players if they become available. On top of that is team dynamics, once we begin to overpay one player it jeopardises the list in general. I know itās sexy to be linked to and land a big name, but thereās a lot more to it than that.
Iām with Killer, I reckon weāre much better off targeting tactical needs - the undervalued or available players who fit a specific requirement, and who we can get a bit cheaper. Iām confident we have a good core of quality players who will naturally improve, and Iām more bullish than a lot. At the same time if we could augment our list with Balic or McKenzie, a Wigg or Matera, or someone else, then great.
Weāre about to play our first final and trade week is off in the distance, nowās not the time to get dipsy about what we couldāve done.
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How Iād love to line up next year:
FB: Baguley Ambrose Gleeson
HB: McKenna Hurley Hind
C: McGrath Rockliff Zerrett
HF: BBB JoeDan Orazio
FF: Stewie Hooker Walla
FOLL: TBell, Heppell, Parish
I/C: Langford, Zaharakis, Goddard, Colyer
Almost there: Lav (Needs to prove himself), Green (I think developing big boi would be more beneficial), Hartley, Brown, Frang (if fit)
This is my baseline starting 22 next year. It doesnāt include anyone not yet contracted for 2018.
FB: Redman Hartley Hurley
HB: Gleeson Ambrose Ridley
C: McGrath Zaharakis Fantasia
HF: Walla Daniher Laverde
FF: Stewart Hooker Begley
FOLL: Bellchambers Heppell Zerrett
I/C: Parish Langford Mutch Francis
E : Goddard Colyer Myers Leuenberger Brown Dea Clarke
Iām all for speed, composure with the ball, and disposal skills.
That side has one key weakness, and thatās a few lightweight defenders. But they donāt lack courage, are good readers of the play, and can all take a contested mark. Besides which, if they get in trouble, Ambrose smash.
Thatās a pretty strong starting point, and why I think we need to be focussing on real quality only. Weāve already got a stable well balanced side.
Youāve forgotten McKenna and Iād be leaving Razzle HF for another year personally. Also think Green adds a bit with his chase and assists, if he kicks straight like he did at Brions he all of a sudden even better. Goddard isnt and emergency with the way he is playing and with the old heads we lose.