Middle East Discussion


#201

But they do break into family’s homes and stab grandmothers and children in their beds… on multiple occasions (including decapitating an infant). And then get heralded as heroes and financially rewarded for it.

They are both clearly as bad as eachother.

I’d also say to Reboot’s earlier comment… Israel is a fairly fractured society full of a gazillin different minority views. While one demographic clearly does want to take all the remaining Palestinian lands… and there are many other groups of people in Israeli society that don’t and further, want to withdraw all the settlements. Thinking that Netanyahu represents the entire country discounts its complexities. Remember he is a minority leader and israel has never had a majority government.

The ‘always was, always will be’ also ignores that Israel was largely left-wing for the first 20 years of its existence and this hardline rightwing expansionist mentality wasn’t always the dominant force…

I really wonder where things would be if Rabin hadn’t been assasinated… he seemed on the verge of a real breakthrough in the year he was gunned down.


#202

HAHAHA.

I had to break my hiatus to laugh at this post.


#203

Yeah, you would laugh - but honestly, what do you know? Can you make a compelling argument otherwise?

I’m kind of fed up with this lazy moral equivalence accusation between Israelis and Palestinians - “they’re both as bad as each other”. It’s simply not even remotely true.


#204

From the Jerusalem Post

REALITY CHECK: THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD. REALLY?

After 70 years of independence, we should be mature enough to honestly examine ourselves.

BY JEFF BARAK

APRIL 15, 2018 21:20

The IDF, said Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman recently, is the most moral army in the world, a statement which had most Israelis nodding their head in automatic agreement. But how do we know? Is there a league table for military morality, with a point gained for every enemy civilian left unharmed during a battle, two deducted for every civilian maimed or killed and five points taken off for any use of illegal weapons? Who keeps the score?

And if there really was such a system of assessing military morality, how do we honestly think the IDF would rank?

Over the past three weekends, more than 30 unarmed Palestinians have been shot dead by IDF snipers for demonstrating on the Palestinian side of the border between Israel and Gaza, including Yasser Murtaja, who was clearly wearing a flak jacket identifying him as a journalist when shot. Another 300 or more Palestinians have been wounded by live fire in these demonstrations.

These were not peaceful demonstrations on the Palestinian side, and were clearly designed to spark conflict with the IDF, but why is “the most moral army in the world” automatically resorting to the use of live ammunition against unarmed demonstrators to quell such protests? It’s not as if the IDF does not have water cannons, tear-gas grenades, rubber bullets and other non-lethal weaponry at its disposal.

Or take the example of Elor Azaria, convicted of manslaughter – not murder – for shooting dead an incapacitated Palestinian terrorist. For this crime, he was initially sentenced by a military court to 18 months in prison, which then was later commuted to 14 months by none other than IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot. Exactly what moral lesson is being taught here? That killing a defenseless prisoner only merits a relatively short period of time behind bars?

These are not examples of a few rotten apples spoiling the rest of the barrel. In Israel’s last major military offensive, Operation Protective Edge in the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2014, more than 2,100 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, along with 66 Israeli soldiers and seven civilians in Israel. The vast majority of these Palestinian victims were civilians, according to the United Nations. Again, are these the statistics that befit the “most moral army in the world”?

And of course, it is the IDF that has been responsible for the past half-century for maintaining Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, controlling the daily lives of millions of Palestinians, and enforcing the blockade of the Gaza Strip, making any chance of reconstruction and economic recovery there extremely unlikely.

But the opposite is not true either. None of the above examples turns the IDF into the most immoral army in the world. As Defense Minister Liberman pointed out when defending the IDF’s actions on the border with Gaza: “In the entire region, half a million were murdered in Syria, hundreds of thousands were murdered in Yemen, Libya and Iraq. No one notices…”

Well, following Syrian President Bashar Assad’s chemical weapons attack on his own people, the United States, Britain and France rightly responded this weekend, but in general the thrust of Liberman’s argument is correct: Israel is singled out more than other countries for its use of force. But rather than automatically reject such criticism by trotting out ridiculous platitudes such as “the IDF is the most moral army in the world,” we should show the maturity to honestly examine ourselves in the mirror.

As we approach Israel’s 70th Independence Day celebrations later this week, we have much, as the advertisements proclaim, to be proud of. Israel’s accomplishments in so many spheres – from science, medicine and high tech to our world-famous authors, intellectuals and sporting figures – are remarkable for such a small country that has lived all its life under the shadow of war.

We deserve this celebration and should take pride in the renewal of Jewish sovereignty in our ancient homeland. The creation of the State of Israel in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust and our ability to defend ourselves, particularly in the country’s early years, are not something that should be taken for granted.

Like any society, however, not everything is perfect in the land of Israel, from widening social inequality, increasing religious coercion, a dangerous wave of populist nationalism sweeping through the ruling coalition, and our failure to make peace with the Palestinians.

After 70 years of independence, the country’s leadership should be mature enough to recognize this imperfection, and not rely on tired and meaningless clichés to create a false and ultimately damaging self-image. Not everything done in the name of the State of Israel is automatically moral. As Prof. Yuval Noah Harari, one of Israel’s most famous historians, wisely warns, placing the state above all other values is where fascism takes over from nationalism.


#205

I’ve always found it very interesting that Israeli names sound equally correct written forward or backward.


#206

Tinu G ?


#207

There are so many things wrong with this article (not the first time reading it btw).


#208

I dunno. Probably the medic getting shot. Or was she hamas like the guy they shot in the face with a tear gas cannister?


#209

Yeah imagine someone defending themselves against invasion.

Where were those borders again?


#210

What invasion? Perhaps actually read about it first. I don’t believe you actually have any idea what you’re talking about.

They were potesting at the Gaza border - the same Gaza that Israel evacuated in 2005 and handed over to the Palestinians, who then elected Hamas as their government and have used it as a launching pad for terrorist activity ever since.

This week, as the US opened an embassy in Jerusalem, Israeli forces made headlines for killing children and the disabled along its borders.

But mixed in with the crowd are actual Hamas terrorists. Hamas itself put out media saying 10 of the 58 killed on Monday at the border were fighters in its ranks. The Israeli Defence Forces said 24 “terrorists” had been killed amid the violent protests.

Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, a senior Hamas official told MEMRI TV that “this is not peaceful resistance.”

“When we talk about peaceful resistance, we are deceiving the public,” Zahhar said.

“This is peaceful resistance bolstered by a military force and by security agencies and enjoying tremendous popular support,” Zahhar said.

Israel and its allies argue Hamas has likely endangered the lives of peaceful protesters by adding a militarised element to the border protests.

NPR interviewed a young Palestinian protesting on the border who had a kite with swastikas on it. He said he intended to set on fire and fly over the Israeli border as a kind of improvised incendiary device, saying he embraced anti-Semitism and Nazism.

“The Jews go crazy for Hitler when they see it,” he said.

Confronted with the fact that Israelis point to the use of swastikas to discredit the protests as anti-Semitic and violently anti-Israel, the man remained firm.

“This is actually what we want them to know, that we want to burn them,” the man said.


#211

I wouldn’t know, but are you seriously suggesting that Israeli’s purposely target medics and journalists? Why would they do that? AND if that is their strategy then why haven’t they killed many more?

Are you that dense?


#212

This thread is fascinating.

It’s clear that you guys haven’t bothered to actually examine the issue and have no actual understanding of what’s going on other than “Israel kill people in wars, Israel bad”.


#213

And you disagree with Israeli journalists who don’t share your point of view.
So how reliable, factually, is your opinion?

I assume the truth is somewhere between the most strident anti and your poor Israel has no choice and does no wrong view.


#214

They’re pre occupied with shooting kids throwing rocks.


#215

Ah right, silly me.


#216

They’re pre occupied with shooting kids throwing rocks.


#217

Shooting kids from occupied territories.


#218

I never said they do no wrong.

I disagree with plenty of decisions they make. Like any country, it’s a diverse melting pot of opinions and interests.

But I’m not foolish enough to believe that both sides are morally comparable and equally at fault for the ongoing violence.


#219

Is this the example of the morality you speak of?


#220

What do you take issue with exactly?