Middle East Discussion

Will ADD there will never be two states - The influx of Israelians into the Palenstinian territory means you will end up with one state - So Israel being the home of Jews is a lost cause.

Some of the drivel I’m reading in this thread is astounding. Let’s call Israel for what it really is. An apartheid state. Gaza is literally an open-air prison for Palestinians.

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Farking unbelieveable hey. Some on here make out Israeli is some utopia. Yeah, let’s keep occupying a people making it virtually impossible for a two state solution.

Gaza and West Bank have virtually no say in Israeli political parties that control most of their lives. But hey, she’s a democracy.

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Israel has a right to exist in peace. Palestinians have a right to an unencumbered homeland which to also exist in peace. Seems simple enough but I don’t think there is enough will on either side to achieve it. Each new generation of leader is more hardened than the last. The military strength of Israel guarantees it will get what it wants should things come to that and there is no way (naturally enough) that they would agree to a UN or independent arbitration. The Palestinians probably wouldn’t either. It’s too far gone to satisfy both sides.

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Lot of that is their own choice, or did you not get the report on what Hamas is up to in there?

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Israel is the sadistic jailer. Hamas is the psycho prison gang leader who terrorises the other inmates.

Collaborators are not treated well. Anywhere.

Their latest lot of treatment was nothing to do with collaboration though, that’s the issue.

When the PA (PLO) was in charge of Gaza there was no blockade, that came after Hamas got into power and started their attacks on Israel.

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I think there was a time were the majority of Israeli’s were willing to forego land in the pursuit of peace. Israel has made several attempts at doing so, but each time its been met with rejection and violence from the Palestinians. Whether it be Second Intifada which was started post the Camp David summit in 2000, or more recently the Israeli disengagement from Gaza which was hailed by the Israeli left at the time as being a major step towards peace. Even those on the left now would have to now acknowledge that it’s been an abject failure and has only served to embolden Hamas and weaken Israeli security. The land for peace model, in my opinion, doesn’t work.

I still think that if there was a legitimate option on the table, whereby Palestinians would agree to live side by side in harmony and would be open to security arrangements that would make such a possibility viable, Israelis would happily go along. The problem is Palestinians won’t come to the table. They refuse to recognise Israel’s right to exist (a basic requirement in any negotiation I would have thought), refuse to provide or even entertain a solution (they have literally turned down Trump’s plan before he has even had a chance to propose it), there’s no unity between the governing factions in the West Bank and Gaza so even if Abbass were to agree to terms, he couldn’t possibly hope to negotiate on behalf of all Palestinians and any agreement would almost certainly not be honoured. There is a history of bad-faith negotiations making any potential agreement shrouded in distrust.

Wikipedia have summarised this reasonably well:

However, the violence of the [second intifada] and the political success of [Hamas] (a group dedicated to Israel’s destruction) have convinced many Israelis that peace and negotiation are not possible and a two state system is not the answer. Israelis view the peace process as hindered and near impossible due to [terrorism] on the part of Palestinians and do not trust Palestinian leadership to maintain control.

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All that is pretty much on the money but Israel’s encroaching into (future) Palestinian territory has made it near on impossible to come to terms down the line for the reason you stated below.

I can’t see a right leaning coalition returning any lands acquired since the Gaza hand back and I can’t see a left leaning coalition coming to power for the foreseeable future and they probably wouldn’t do it either.

Hamas won’t change because the more the population suffers, the tighter their grip on power and the PLO can’t do or won’t do anything about it

Both sides are so entrenched that it won’t change. They’ve all painted themselves into corners that they can’t retreat from.

I get why Israel is so concerned about Iran gaining nuclear capability because that has the real potential to change the balance of power. Israel can dictate current terms because they are the prevailing regional power but that could change very quickly.

I have great sympathy for Palestinians and can only imagine what their situation is like and do believe that Israel’s actions, particularly under A Sharon and subsequently consolidated by B Netanyahu have made finding peace between the two groups much more difficult. Having said that, Israel’s right to exist in peace and safety is undeniable and sleeping with one eye open is something that we thankfully don’t experience here and hopefully never will.

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I don’t think it does. Any two-state solution, should it ever eventuate, would have to involve land swaps. Israel’s position is that it should be the subject of negotiation and that they have a right to build in those areas, even under international law (although that’s obviously contentious).

Dunno, Gabe.

It’s highly inflammatory and although anything can be done, it would take extreme will from the government that has to evict Israeli families from land that many believe is theirs by Holy decree.

There are votes in taking the land and there are votes in keeping it. No votes in giving it back.

A two state solution is impractical in 2019. At the end of the day it will be a shared state.

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A single state can never happen, as this infers that all Palestine would be part of Israel. Neither side would ever agree, so it is either two state or the current shitstorm.

A single state is more likely than a two state solution - How can you have two states when Israel has settled in large tranches of notionally Palestinian land.

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Maybe a single state is a practical solution, but the Knesset would never give control to a joint government including those from Palestine.

There are also significant water access issues.

The only way Palestinians can leave is via Egypt through the Rafah crossing and only if they have a special permits and passport which barely anyone has.

This reads like Zionist propaganda.

Think for a moment what it’s like to be a Palestinian. An entire race is losing (or lost) its livelihood, their homes, their loved ones and their dignity. You expect them to just take that lying down? FFS. I bet you right now if elections were held in Palestine, Hamas would likely win again. This isn’t because Palestinians agree with Hamas’ Islamist principles, and not because they’re anti-Semitic fanatics, but because living in inhumane conditions imposed by an occupying power will turn people to organisations that give voice to their aspirations for liberation.

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