By 1948 everyone knew colonialism was a failure and on the way out.
(I’m also not claiming the Europeans got the “correct” answer for the other boundaries formed after WW1… their failures are still obvious a century onwards.)
Some people obsess about Israel as if it’s some tyrannical land grab purported by Jews who have no ancestral and religious connection to the land.
In reality:
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Israel is the only Jewish State. For comparison, there are about 50 countries in the world where the majority of the population are Muslim, and 26 countries in which Islam is the state religion by constitution
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Tasmania is 3.3x the size of Israel. Consider that stat for a second! The way the world behaves -including the insane overrepresentation in condemnations from UN Human Rights commission -you would think Israel is the size of China
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There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for the last 3,700 years, dating all the way back to biblical times. Israel as the ancient Jewish homeland is central to the Jewish faith. It is mentioned repeatedly in daily prayers, as well as in the culmination to the Passover Seder where Jews proclaim their desire to live together in Israel. This is a tradition that dates thousands of years
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The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimise Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin " is derived from this Latin name
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No independent Arab or Palestinian state has ever existed in Israel
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Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel’s capture of the West Bank
Some more interesting facts to stew on. Israel is home to a large Arab population, but what about Jewish populations across the Muslim and Arab world?
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Yesterday I believe was the memorial day for Jews displaced from Arab countries and Iran
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In 1948, about a million Jews lived in those countries, communities that had existed for millennia
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After Israel’s creation, 850,000+ were expelled or left under duress
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Today, fewer than 20,000 remain
- ~20% of the Israeli parliament (Knesset) are Arabs. 0% of the governments in any of these other countries is Jewish
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‘No independent Arab or Palestine State has ever existed in Israel’
- Israel did not exist as a State until 1948
The Moors didn’t expel the Jews from Spain.
You left out the bits of persecution of Jews in Europe, including the numbers of Jews in European countries pre and post WW2.
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The context of his argument here seems to me to be concentrating on the push by Arab nations to call out Israel for practicing Apartheid.
As such, references to European countries are irrelevant in the context of his argument.
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- ~20% of the Israeli parliament (Knesset) are Arabs. 0% of the governments in any of these other countries is Jewish
From Times of Israel - 22 Feb 2020
Iranian Jews cast votes in parliamentary elections
Iran’s Jewish community is one of four religious minorities with a designated seat in parliament; final results of election, which is likely to boost conservatives, expected Sunday
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No, much more than that.
Israel was carved out of Palestine , but officially is now only a homeland for the Jews.
Israel justifies its illegal settlements in Palestine on the basis that Palestine is not a State, although most Western countries are committed to Statehood.
In regard to the references to the decline in Jewish numbers in Middle East States, it is also relevant to compare the situation in European countries pre and post WW2.
The scale of persecution of Jews in Islamic States has not matched that of European countries in history.
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Sometimes I think you just like being obtuse.
G-Unit’s argument here is based on
As such, your continuing push about European persecution is not in play.
If you want to go on about European persecution, start a new post referencing that.
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The modern state of Israel, yes, but Jewish sovereignty in Israel long predates 1948. In contrast, there has never been a sovereign Arab or Palestinian state.
The land of Israel was established around 1,200 BCE. It existed as such for about 2,000 years until the destruction of the second temple and ultimate expulsion by the Romans.
Both Christianity and Islam accept this history and reality as part of their origins. Both these religion were founded after this 2,000 year long existence.
Despite expulsion, Jews have had a constant presence in the region for a further 2,000 years. This is fact. You can see archeological remnants dating back to these periods.
The historical revisionism that is being spouted would have you believe something entirely different.
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While I’m at it, I thought I’d look at the number of reported deaths in armed conflicts.
These numbers are taken from Wikipedia but feel free to research yourself.
I think safe to say some of these conflicts many of us would never have heard of or at the very least there’s minimal coverage in the media or focus in the UN.
Now let’s take a look at the number of deaths in the Arab-Israel conflict since 2006. Once again, with the blood libels of ‘Israeli genocide’ and the hyperfocus on Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, you would probably expect a 6 figure death count at a minimum.
The truth…
Israel is very poor at committing genocide, particularly when you look at Arab population growth during this time period.
The establishment of the State of Israel and its official recognition was given impetus by persecution, in particular arising from WW2.
History is relevant to this thread, including when another poster raises it, going back centuries.
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Basically, @G-Unit is saying if you’re not First Nations, GTFO of “Australia”.
(that is a much more clear argument than “the Jewish people have been around long enough to deserve a participation award country”, especially given the boundaries and nature of the bulk of modern countries are only a few hundred years old at best and deeply arbitrary)
Just embrace your inner Spike:
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Not what I said at all.
I get it, it’s hard to argue against the facts because that would require actual research and knowledge.
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Some straw dogs being thrown in here.
Israel presents as the only true democracy in the Middle East.
Its behaviour is being addressed against the standard of behaviour of democracies, including respect for the international rule of law, the basis for international recognition of its status in the UN.
Other countries come in for their whack in this thread and in country specific threads ( such as West Taiwan, Russia in the Ukraine thread , US in two threads and the UK in a couple). It’s not a hyperfocus on Israel.
I am not aware of anyone in this thread referring to Israeli genocide.
My concerns with Israel relate to its illegal settlements and discriminatory treatment of Palestinians in areas it controls, together with its relationship with Russia and unwillingness to assist Ukraine.
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So this justifies expulsion of non Jews in 1948 of their land?
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This is the main issue for me. These people are treated like crap. “Open air prison”, is basically the best term I’ve heard to describe it.
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I’ve made my stance pretty clear that I’m empathetic to both sides. The 1948 decision crystallised a conflict that may not have happened otherwise. It was pure ego and guilt by the European powers.
Looking back in history to 1000 years ago is honestly meaningless. Anyone can come up with a historical justification for territorial claims, see Putin referencing 1600s Kyivan Rus. King Charles has a perfectly valid justification to invade the USA if he were to simply ignore a few awkward centuries of history. The world we live in is the here and now, shaped by the lived experience.
What Israel is being judged on now is a regional military superpower democracy. in that context, they’ve made indefensible land grabs with their settlements. The Palestinians have living memory of being forcefully evicted off their lands. Their decedents are living in squalor. It is a horrid situation, a stark difference obvious to anyone who looks at the region on a satellite photo.
Does this make the Israeli people evil? No. Should their nation cease to exist? Definitely not, that card was played generations ago and the consequences across the Middle East are with us forever should we agree with the decisions or not. There’s a middle ground here that calls Israel out for unacceptable behaviour without attacking the Jewish people.
So all I can say to the Israeli / Jewish readers of this thread… we want to support you. Just make it easy for us. Act like the good guy and take the high road wherever you can. It’ll work out best for all over the long term.
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I agree with the sentiment.
But add my support to the Palestinians who have legitimate grievances and deserve much better then the lot they have.
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It just sucks. I don’t think there’s many populations on the planet as helpless and hopeless as those in the Palestinian territories.
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29 November was the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.
The UNSG statement on that day is up on the UNRWA site ( which includes details on assistance to those in Palestine and Palestine refugees elsewhere, the situation in Lebanon is dire)
Most of the assistance comes through the UNHCR under the UN Refugees Convention.
Technically, those in Palestine would be classified as displaced.
The UN Conventions on Statelessness don’t seem to help them much in acquiring a nationality, except if they are accepted into a third country and are permitted naturalisation.
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