Middle East Discussion


#121
The people of Gaza live under an oppressive regime in Hamas.

It might shock you to learn that more money is donated to the Palestinians per capita than any other people on earth. Where does all that money go?

To fund terror tunnels, arms, and terror attacks. Money that could be directed towards building schools, hospitals, parks etc is being hijacked by a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews. Moreover, they use their own civilians to shield themselves from any Israeli response.

These are not the actions of a benevolent organization fighting for peace and the wellbeing of their people.

The 1m+ Israeli Arabs are granted far more freedoms than any Palestinian. They serve as judges, politicians, receive voting rights… Etc and receive all the benefits of being a citizen of the only true democracy in the middle east. It says something that the Palestinians would receive better treatment under an Israeli government than a Palestinian one.

I don’t know why I’m getting back into this, but no-one has suggested they support Hamas have they?
Is this still a discussion about settlements and the UN decision?

It’s extremely relevant in the context of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict. With a Hamas/PA joint government, Israel has no partner for peace, rendering any talk of a two state solution a complete pipedream.

Comments from Hamas support my argument that this latest move by the Un - apart from being a complete lie - actually serves to embolden Israel’s enemies and is dangerous and destructive.


Hamas leadership praised the recent UN resolution which declared Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem illegal.

At a press conference in Turkey earlier this week, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said that Israel has become a “burden” to the world, and that the Palestinian side is the winning side.

Mashaal said that the passage of the UN resolution was a step in the right direction in the “struggle for the returning of the Land” to Arab hands - without political negotiations with Israel.

Likewise, Mashaal blamed Israel for all fighting in the Middle East - including the Sunni-Shiite conflict manifested in the Syrian civil war and the fighting in Iraq and Yemen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222348

Have you read the Likud Charter? It opposes Palestinian statehood.

So…get rid of the Likud party and Hamas and get some moderates on both sides who are willing to compromise for peace.

There are no sides in this that don’t have blood on their hands and/or agendas where peace is not the top priority.


#122
The people of Gaza live under an oppressive regime in Hamas.

It might shock you to learn that more money is donated to the Palestinians per capita than any other people on earth. Where does all that money go?

To fund terror tunnels, arms, and terror attacks. Money that could be directed towards building schools, hospitals, parks etc is being hijacked by a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews. Moreover, they use their own civilians to shield themselves from any Israeli response.

These are not the actions of a benevolent organization fighting for peace and the wellbeing of their people.

The 1m+ Israeli Arabs are granted far more freedoms than any Palestinian. They serve as judges, politicians, receive voting rights… Etc and receive all the benefits of being a citizen of the only true democracy in the middle east. It says something that the Palestinians would receive better treatment under an Israeli government than a Palestinian one.

I don’t know why I’m getting back into this, but no-one has suggested they support Hamas have they?
Is this still a discussion about settlements and the UN decision?

It’s extremely relevant in the context of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict. With a Hamas/PA joint government, Israel has no partner for peace, rendering any talk of a two state solution a complete pipedream.

Comments from Hamas support my argument that this latest move by the Un - apart from being a complete lie - actually serves to embolden Israel’s enemies and is dangerous and destructive.


Hamas leadership praised the recent UN resolution which declared Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem illegal.

At a press conference in Turkey earlier this week, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said that Israel has become a “burden” to the world, and that the Palestinian side is the winning side.

Mashaal said that the passage of the UN resolution was a step in the right direction in the “struggle for the returning of the Land” to Arab hands - without political negotiations with Israel.

Likewise, Mashaal blamed Israel for all fighting in the Middle East - including the Sunni-Shiite conflict manifested in the Syrian civil war and the fighting in Iraq and Yemen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222348

Have you read the Likud Charter? It opposes Palestinian statehood.

So…get rid of the Likud party and Hamas and get some moderates on both sides who are willing to compromise for peace.

There are no sides in this that don’t have blood on their hands and/or agendas where peace is not the top priority.

That’s a false equivalence. Likud is nothing like Hamas.

Hamas’ charter calls for genocide. Likud does no such thing. Nor does it oppose statehood in any form.

It has been the position of successive Israeli governments - including the current Netanyahu administration - that Israel is open to two states for two peoples. The conditions are simple: enter into direct negotiations, and recognise Israel’s right to exist and right to live in secure and defensible borders.

Netanyahu himself has endorsed a two-state solution:

“The truth is that in the area of our homeland, in the heart of our Jewish Homeland, now lives a large population of Palestinians. We do not want to rule over them. We do not want to run their lives. We do not want to force our flag and our culture on them. In my vision of peace, there are two free peoples living side by side in this small land, with good neighborly relations and mutual respect, each with its flag, anthem and government, with neither one threatening its neighbor’s security and existence.”

Source: Full text of Netanyahu’s foreign policy speech at Bar Ilan

http://www.haaretz.com/news/full-text-of-netanyahu-s-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan-1.277922


#123
The people of Gaza live under an oppressive regime in Hamas.

It might shock you to learn that more money is donated to the Palestinians per capita than any other people on earth. Where does all that money go?

To fund terror tunnels, arms, and terror attacks. Money that could be directed towards building schools, hospitals, parks etc is being hijacked by a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews. Moreover, they use their own civilians to shield themselves from any Israeli response.

These are not the actions of a benevolent organization fighting for peace and the wellbeing of their people.

The 1m+ Israeli Arabs are granted far more freedoms than any Palestinian. They serve as judges, politicians, receive voting rights… Etc and receive all the benefits of being a citizen of the only true democracy in the middle east. It says something that the Palestinians would receive better treatment under an Israeli government than a Palestinian one.

I don’t know why I’m getting back into this, but no-one has suggested they support Hamas have they?
Is this still a discussion about settlements and the UN decision?

It’s extremely relevant in the context of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict. With a Hamas/PA joint government, Israel has no partner for peace, rendering any talk of a two state solution a complete pipedream.

Comments from Hamas support my argument that this latest move by the Un - apart from being a complete lie - actually serves to embolden Israel’s enemies and is dangerous and destructive.


Hamas leadership praised the recent UN resolution which declared Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem illegal.

At a press conference in Turkey earlier this week, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said that Israel has become a “burden” to the world, and that the Palestinian side is the winning side.

Mashaal said that the passage of the UN resolution was a step in the right direction in the “struggle for the returning of the Land” to Arab hands - without political negotiations with Israel.

Likewise, Mashaal blamed Israel for all fighting in the Middle East - including the Sunni-Shiite conflict manifested in the Syrian civil war and the fighting in Iraq and Yemen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222348

Yeah, okay. Good.
But…Hamas PR is irrelevant, isn’t it?
You tell me I can’t believe a word they say (and I don’t) and then say, listen to what Hamas said about this!

I understand that you’re saying they’re not an impediment to peace while Hamas are doing their thing. I get that.

The ‘which is a complete lie’ part.
I care about that part.
Explain that to me.
Do you think Israel are entitled to populate and then militarise the entire West Bank?
Actually I’m more interested in what you think they’re not entitled to.


#124
The people of Gaza live under an oppressive regime in Hamas.

It might shock you to learn that more money is donated to the Palestinians per capita than any other people on earth. Where does all that money go?

To fund terror tunnels, arms, and terror attacks. Money that could be directed towards building schools, hospitals, parks etc is being hijacked by a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews. Moreover, they use their own civilians to shield themselves from any Israeli response.

These are not the actions of a benevolent organization fighting for peace and the wellbeing of their people.

The 1m+ Israeli Arabs are granted far more freedoms than any Palestinian. They serve as judges, politicians, receive voting rights… Etc and receive all the benefits of being a citizen of the only true democracy in the middle east. It says something that the Palestinians would receive better treatment under an Israeli government than a Palestinian one.

I don’t know why I’m getting back into this, but no-one has suggested they support Hamas have they?
Is this still a discussion about settlements and the UN decision?

It’s extremely relevant in the context of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict. With a Hamas/PA joint government, Israel has no partner for peace, rendering any talk of a two state solution a complete pipedream.

Comments from Hamas support my argument that this latest move by the Un - apart from being a complete lie - actually serves to embolden Israel’s enemies and is dangerous and destructive.


Hamas leadership praised the recent UN resolution which declared Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem illegal.

At a press conference in Turkey earlier this week, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said that Israel has become a “burden” to the world, and that the Palestinian side is the winning side.

Mashaal said that the passage of the UN resolution was a step in the right direction in the “struggle for the returning of the Land” to Arab hands - without political negotiations with Israel.

Likewise, Mashaal blamed Israel for all fighting in the Middle East - including the Sunni-Shiite conflict manifested in the Syrian civil war and the fighting in Iraq and Yemen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222348

Yeah, okay. Good.
But…Hamas PR is irrelevant, isn’t it?
You tell me I can’t believe a word they say (and I don’t) and then say, listen to what Hamas said about this!

I understand that you’re saying they’re not an impediment to peace while Hamas are doing their thing. I get that.

The ‘which is a complete lie’ part.
I care about that part.
Explain that to me.
Do you think Israel are entitled to populate and then militarise the entire West Bank?
Actually I’m more interested in what you think they’re not entitled to.

Because the resolution states that the presence of Jews in Judea, Samaria and Eastern Jerusalem is in flagrant violation of international law.

I posted this earlier:

Accusation: Israeli Settlements are illegal and in violation of the Oslo
peace agreements

Rebuttal: When Israel captured the Territories in 1967 they took over
administration from powers who themselves did not have sovereignty over
the areas. The Palestinian leadership, it will be remembered, themselves
rejected sovereignty in these areas when they rejected the 1947
Partition Plan. These areas cannot therefore be considered occupied
territories as they were not occupied from another nation with
legitimate sovereignty. A more accurate term would be ‘disputed
territories’ whose future Israel is committed to resolving through
negotiations.

The main basis for suggestions of illegality appears to be Article 49 of
the Fourth Geneva Convention. It states “Individual or mass forcible
transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied
territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any
other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their
motive”. In other words a population may not be forcibly moved from the
occupied areas to other lands. But the settlements involve the voluntary
movement of individuals into the so-called occupied areas, not out of
them. The native population is not displaced by the settlements either.
There is no attempt, nor has there ever been, to remove the Palestinian
population from the West Bank or Gaza strip areas.

The Fourth Geneva Convention goes on to state that “The Occupying Power
shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into
the territory it occupies”, a clause inserted to prevent what is now
referred to as ‘ethnic cleansing’. This passage applies to involuntary
transfer, and so it doesn’t apply to the Israeli case.

It is important to note that the Fourth Geneva Convention only applies
to cases of occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party to
the Convention. As mentioned above, the last lawful sovereignty over the
Territories before Israel took control over them was that of the League
of Nations Mandate. This means that that Convention does not apply to
the Israeli presence in the Territories.

The agreements between the Palestinians and the Israelis refer to the
settlements as an issue to be resolved in the final status negotiations.
(The point at which talks ultimately stalled).

There are no restrictions on settlement building in any of the signed
agreements. All they say is that no party can seek to change the status
of the West Bank or Gaza Strip. A change of status would be the
annexation of the land or a unilateral declaration of statehood.


#125

Yes, okay.
But aren’t the settlements just doing that last sentence by stealth in all but name?


#126
The people of Gaza live under an oppressive regime in Hamas.

It might shock you to learn that more money is donated to the Palestinians per capita than any other people on earth. Where does all that money go?

To fund terror tunnels, arms, and terror attacks. Money that could be directed towards building schools, hospitals, parks etc is being hijacked by a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews. Moreover, they use their own civilians to shield themselves from any Israeli response.

These are not the actions of a benevolent organization fighting for peace and the wellbeing of their people.

The 1m+ Israeli Arabs are granted far more freedoms than any Palestinian. They serve as judges, politicians, receive voting rights… Etc and receive all the benefits of being a citizen of the only true democracy in the middle east. It says something that the Palestinians would receive better treatment under an Israeli government than a Palestinian one.

I don’t know why I’m getting back into this, but no-one has suggested they support Hamas have they?
Is this still a discussion about settlements and the UN decision?

It’s extremely relevant in the context of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict. With a Hamas/PA joint government, Israel has no partner for peace, rendering any talk of a two state solution a complete pipedream.

Comments from Hamas support my argument that this latest move by the Un - apart from being a complete lie - actually serves to embolden Israel’s enemies and is dangerous and destructive.


Hamas leadership praised the recent UN resolution which declared Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem illegal.

At a press conference in Turkey earlier this week, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said that Israel has become a “burden” to the world, and that the Palestinian side is the winning side.

Mashaal said that the passage of the UN resolution was a step in the right direction in the “struggle for the returning of the Land” to Arab hands - without political negotiations with Israel.

Likewise, Mashaal blamed Israel for all fighting in the Middle East - including the Sunni-Shiite conflict manifested in the Syrian civil war and the fighting in Iraq and Yemen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222348

Yeah, okay. Good.
But…Hamas PR is irrelevant, isn’t it?
You tell me I can’t believe a word they say (and I don’t) and then say, listen to what Hamas said about this!

I understand that you’re saying they’re not an impediment to peace while Hamas are doing their thing. I get that.

The ‘which is a complete lie’ part.
I care about that part.
Explain that to me.
Do you think Israel are entitled to populate and then militarise the entire West Bank?
Actually I’m more interested in what you think they’re not entitled to.

“Hamas PR”? This is not some Summer intern. These are statements from their most senior leaders. Why wouldn’t I believe them when they say they are committed to Jewish extermination???

I think Israel are entitled to live in peace and defend themselves when required. If that means having a military presence in the West Bank, then so be it.

What would you do differently?


#127
Yes, okay. But aren't the settlements just doing that last sentence by stealth in all but name?

No


#128
The people of Gaza live under an oppressive regime in Hamas.

It might shock you to learn that more money is donated to the Palestinians per capita than any other people on earth. Where does all that money go?

To fund terror tunnels, arms, and terror attacks. Money that could be directed towards building schools, hospitals, parks etc is being hijacked by a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews. Moreover, they use their own civilians to shield themselves from any Israeli response.

These are not the actions of a benevolent organization fighting for peace and the wellbeing of their people.

The 1m+ Israeli Arabs are granted far more freedoms than any Palestinian. They serve as judges, politicians, receive voting rights… Etc and receive all the benefits of being a citizen of the only true democracy in the middle east. It says something that the Palestinians would receive better treatment under an Israeli government than a Palestinian one.

I don’t know why I’m getting back into this, but no-one has suggested they support Hamas have they?
Is this still a discussion about settlements and the UN decision?

It’s extremely relevant in the context of achieving a peaceful resolution to the conflict. With a Hamas/PA joint government, Israel has no partner for peace, rendering any talk of a two state solution a complete pipedream.

Comments from Hamas support my argument that this latest move by the Un - apart from being a complete lie - actually serves to embolden Israel’s enemies and is dangerous and destructive.


Hamas leadership praised the recent UN resolution which declared Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem illegal.

At a press conference in Turkey earlier this week, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said that Israel has become a “burden” to the world, and that the Palestinian side is the winning side.

Mashaal said that the passage of the UN resolution was a step in the right direction in the “struggle for the returning of the Land” to Arab hands - without political negotiations with Israel.

Likewise, Mashaal blamed Israel for all fighting in the Middle East - including the Sunni-Shiite conflict manifested in the Syrian civil war and the fighting in Iraq and Yemen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222348

Yeah, okay. Good.
But…Hamas PR is irrelevant, isn’t it?
You tell me I can’t believe a word they say (and I don’t) and then say, listen to what Hamas said about this!

I understand that you’re saying they’re not an impediment to peace while Hamas are doing their thing. I get that.

The ‘which is a complete lie’ part.
I care about that part.
Explain that to me.
Do you think Israel are entitled to populate and then militarise the entire West Bank?
Actually I’m more interested in what you think they’re not entitled to.

“Hamas PR”? This is not some Summer intern. These are statements from their most senior leaders. Why wouldn’t I believe them when they say they are committed to Jewish extermination???

I think Israel are entitled to live in peace and defend themselves when required. If that means having a military presence in the West Bank, then so be it.

What would you do differently?

No, I didn’t mean that you shouldn’t believe that.
I just meant that I’m not interested in what Hamas says about the UN decision.
And again, I get that part is important to you but it doesn’t interest me at all.
I don’t think Hamas are the good guys.

If that means having a military presence in the West Bank…
Well…does it mean that?

I absolutely confess to knowing virtually nothing about this conflict, but let me tell you what it looks like to me, and you tell me where I’m going wrong.

To me it looks like Israel are continuing to populate the West Bank just as much as they can, increasing the military presence there to protect the new settlements that never stop increasing, pretty much making it an Israeli annexure.
It also makes it difficult for the Palestinians who live there to move around, because of all the protection going on, so that they’re left which two choices.

  1. Leave. In which case the West Bank falls to Israel by default. Or,
  2. Revolt. Which would be war, and Israel would smash them until there was no-one left and the West Bank falls to them by, well…death.

Surely at a certain point, increased settlements and military presence make that inevitable?


#129
Yes, okay. But aren't the settlements just doing that last sentence by stealth in all but name?

No

Because…


#130
Yes, okay. But aren't the settlements just doing that last sentence by stealth in all but name?

No

Because…

Because Gaza. Israel extracted every last Jew from the area. It can be done again.


#131
Yes, okay. But aren't the settlements just doing that last sentence by stealth in all but name?

No

Because…

Because Gaza. Israel extracted every last Jew from the area. It can be done again.

Doesn’t seem an ideal situation, but better than the other two.


#132

Way back when I was in uni and dinosaurs roamed the earth, I did a crappy first-year international politics course. In it, the lecturer explained that there were two two dominant theories about how states (or state-like organisations) interact. The first is realist theory, which says that states at all times act in a manner calculated to maximise their own power in relation to that of other states - a zero-sum kinda mindset. The second is rationalist theory, which says that realist theory is oversimplistic and that states can sometimes rationally cooperate to achieve mutual goals, and that win-win outcomes are possible even among rivals.

I did a semester of this and then thought to myself ‘nah, those are both pants’ and formulated humble minion theory, which says that states generally act in a way that benefits the individuals and organisations in power in those states. And then I went off and studied computer science and stopped faffing around with humanities subjects, but much later I found out that (like most of my good ideas) someone had already thought of this and given it a name which I have long since forgotten, but which is much less snappy than ‘humble minion theory’

There’s a lot of HM theory going on in the israel/palestine thing. People forget that Clinton’s peace plan back in the 90s was accepted by both sides, but then both leaders who negotiated it were turned on by extremists on their own sides, and the plan sank. Rabin was murdered by a Jewish right-winger, and Hamas gleefully took the opportunity to turn on the PLO (who were in charge at the time) and become the new big cheeses in palestinian politics? I think it was GU earlier who was talking about the Israeli withdrawal from I think Hebron? Classic case. Negotiated withdrawal, prime opportunity for everyone to get what they want, and frigging Hamas invokes HM theory. They actually go on a rampage rocketing the israeli troops that are already peacefully withdrawing, just so they can claim bragging rights about ‘forcing the occupiers to retreat’. Cynical, useless, scumbag act of the first order, craps on the peace process, makes israel far less likely to agree to further peaceful withdrawals, kills a bunch of innocent people - but it works, and Hamas wins the next palestinian elections and AFAIK have been in charge ever since.

Netanyahu is in a bit the same position. Settlers in the occupied territories historically tend to support the right side of israeli poitics, so purely from a self-interest point of view it makes entirely sense for a party on the right to create more settlers. And more settlers generates more violence against settlers by Hamas etc, which reduces support for negotiations. I don’t think Likud etc actually think in terms quite that machiavellian when setting policy, of course, I suspect it’s more of a ‘only the people out here in the settlements know what these animals are really like’ mindset, but the effect is the same. Not to mention that Likud hasn’t (last I heard) got a parliamentary majority of their own and are reliant on the support of hardline minor parties, who oppose any sort of compromise, to stay in power. Humble minion theory in action.

Talking about ‘israel did X’ or ‘the Palestinians believe Y’ is unproductive and inaccurate. They’re not monolithic organisations, each contains a whole bunch of factions interest groups, and people who disagree on the best way to go about things.


#133

All this chatter about the ME and “removing” Hamas and Likud, seems to neglect that both Israel and Palestine held democratic elections who voted for Hamas and Netanyahu to assume control. Democracy is the issue.

And G-Unit, I have seen with my own little eyes, new Israeli settlements where existing Arabs owners and residents were forcibly displaced.


#134

I cant see any practical or workable way to form two states. If you form Palestine as a landlocked entity based around the West Bank it will be an economic basketcase. And what happens to Gaza? How can two opposing parties that claim religious priority to Jerusalem as a matter of strict dogma ever agree on its fate?

And if you have a One State outcome encompassing everything West of the Jordan, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish hegemony as the Jews would soon(ish) become a voting minority in their ‘own’ country, ala the whites in South Africa. This is why Netanyahu was emphasizing the separate peoples aspect in his speech at Bar Ilan. He knows that Israel cant afford a critical mass of voting Arab muslims. But that was back in 2009. At the last election he had vowed there would not be a Palestinian state and i think he’s quite content with the status quo of “occupation” whilst keeping the legal status of the lands at best ‘ambiguous’.

He’s playing a very dodgy political game. Seemingly trying to court Putins favour, he instructed his UN contingent to skip a vote on War Crimes investigations in Syria. Somewhat ironic considering his whining about the UN ignoring the Syrian crisis. But the very next week Russia buried him with the Settlement vote anyway. And at home, he’s trying keep the favour of the even harder Right party.


#135
I cant see any practical or workable way to form two states. If you form Palestine as a landlocked entity based around the West Bank it will be an economic basketcase. And what happens to Gaza? How can two opposing parties that claim religious priority to Jerusalem as a matter of strict dogma ever agree on its fate?

And if you have a One State outcome encompassing everything West of the Jordan, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish hegemony as the Jews would soon(ish) become a voting minority in their ‘own’ country, ala the whites in South Africa. This is why Netanyahu was emphasizing the separate peoples aspect in his speech at Bar Ilan. But that was back in 2009. At the last election he had vowed there would not be a Palestinian state.

Add water security to the mix too.


#136

Sal’s right of course. The longer the occupied territories remain occupied, and the more israeli settlements go up in the occupied territory, the more those territories become israeli land in fact regardless of what they are in name. As this process continues, if Israel doesn’t give palestinians in the occupied territories the vote, then they’re running an apartheid state. If they do, then the nature of Israeli politics, government, and national culture will change dramatically overnight.


#137

Oh, and btw, thanks for not getting cross with me, G.


#138

Courageous decision from the Israeli judiciary.


#139

Here’s some great reading, when you feel like ‘discussing’ something other than violence.

http://www.1001inventions.com/


#140
Here's some great reading, when you feel like 'discussing' something other than violence.

http://www.1001inventions.com/

Thanks for that.