Politics

Centrelink is an easy target for complaints but there are two sides to every story

Paul Malone

The ABC’s Q&A audience laughed at Attorney General George Brandis when he suggested last Monday that people with Centrelink problems could simply contact the agency and sort out the matter.

There are so many accounts of problems with Centrelink that Brandis’ view seemed like fantasyland.

Complainants range from ABC 7.30 Report presenter, Leigh Sales, to disability pensioners and victims of Centrelink’s debt recovery operations.

But could it be that sometimes the agency is being unfairly castigated?

One of the hardest hitting criticisms came from blogger and writer Andie Fox in an article published in Fairfax media outlets on February 6.

She says she tried calling Centrelink during her lunch hour but “I would end up wandering the streets around work with the phone pressed to my ear, on hold, and be no further advanced in the phone queue by the end of the hour.”

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Eventually, she took a day off work to go into a Centrelink office.

But the media adviser for Human Services Minister Alan Tudge said that had she called the 1800 contact number on her debtor’s letter she would in all probability have gone straight through.

I tried this number and low and behold, I got an instant answer.

This is not to say that all Centrelink calls are answered quickly.

There are far too many complaints for that to be true.

But there are at least two sides to every story.

In her detailed article Ms Fox complained that her problem arose from the fact that she was chased by Centrelink for a debt actually owed by her former de facto partner.

She then detailed the run-around she got trying to resolve the matter.

She says she soon found out that even asking the simplest question about the debt threw her into “a vortex of humiliating and frustrating bureaucratic procedures.”

But Centrelink has a different story.

The agency says Ms Fox’s debt is a Family Tax Benefit (FTB) debt for the 2011-12 financial year which arose after she received more FTB than she was entitled to because she under-estimated her family income for that year.

The original debt was raised because she and her ex-partner did not lodge a tax return or confirm their income information for 2011-12.

Centrelink says that after Ms Fox notified the department that she had separated from her partner, the debt due to her partner’s non-lodgement was cancelled.

But what of other problems Ms Fox says she had in dealing with Centrelink?

“Once inside, you line up to receive a seat at a computer terminal from which you are expected to use the government website to solve your problems yourself. A single Centrelink employee marches the floor providing the occasional terse instruction to what resembles an absolute beginners’ tutorial in computer literacy.”

Ms Fox says there was no link on the website through which she could explain that she thought the debt Centrelink was chasing was her ex-partner’s fine for non-lodgement of tax returns.

There was no box in any window to select to explain that his failure to lodge his tax return was why the Family Tax Benefit she claimed was now seen by Centrelink as fraud.

Having gone as far as she could on the website, she pressed the Centrelink employee and asked to speak to someone directly.

She joined another queue. A different staff member saw her at a counter and, again, she relayed her story, shedding any dignity around discussing the details of her break-up and finances.

But Centrelink general manager Hank Jongen says Centrelink made numerous attempts to get in touch with Ms Fox via phone and letter but many of these attempts were left unanswered. Between November 16 and January 17 Centrelink made four phone calls and sent six letters to Ms Fox.

Centrelink says it was not until 2015 that she informed them that she had separated from her partner in 2013.

Mr Jongen said the experience described by Ms Fox could have been avoided if she had informed the department she had separated from her partner in a timely way, and if she had lodged her tax returns in a timely way.

The Department of Human Services maintains that overall wait times have been reduced this year and social security and welfare average-speed-of-answer is around 12 minutes.

But averages don’t help you if you happen to be inquiring at a time when wait times are over an hour.

More staff are needed, particularly during the peak month of July and from December to March each year when there is increased demand for help from families and students.

For years I’ve thought that, of the three broad public service tasks – policy development, service delivery and regulation – far too many staff were allocated to policy development and far too few to the other two areas.

Policy development is the high status activity, but service delivery and regulation are where people meet the service and rate its performance.

At the very least I believe policy development officers should spend some time every year working at the shop front. This should apply from the head of the Prime Minister’s Department, to Treasury and Finance Department budget officers.

Answering pensioners’ queries or fronting a Centrelink counter would not only help the service delivery officers, it would give the policy officers real insight into the role of government.

Time for trivialties

Currently senior officers can find time for trivial matters such as the Australian Public Service Commission’s Brandit competition.

For years the tagline One APS Career, thousands of opportunities has been attached to public service job advertisements.

I doubt if anyone paid attention to this jabber. It would be no loss if it disappeared.

But with nothing else to do, the commission has run a competition to find a new tagline to “convey the employment value proposition of the APS”.

The competition has, of course, included the full bureaucratic kit of judging criteria and judging panel.

Two external judges and the head of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, Martin Parkinson and the Public Service commissioner, John Lloyd have found time to ponder the 32 shortlisted entries from over 700 “fantastic” submissions.I’d rather see them down at the local Centrelink helping members of the public.

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

I’ll go for clarity too, but I’m going to fail.
Notwithstanding that I think the robodebt program is absolutely disgraceful:

You say releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.
You’re not ‘accepting that, kinda…’, it seems to be a very firm conviction of yours.

My position is that if someone identifies themselves and their situation, then the information is no longer confidential. Quite obviously it’s not.
They’ve just chosen to share it with the public.
The department haven’t just said, ‘Hey everyone, check out this welfare fraud,’ they’re responding to information already released by the person.
Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

She put SOME information out there. The department put MORE information about her out there.

That’s a breach of her privacy by them. She can say what she likes about herself. They can discuss in an abstract manner the information she has put in the public domain. They cant provide more information that she hasn’t released.

Yes, I understand that a lot of people think that way.
I’ll repeat.

Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

No I didn’t say the department shouldn’t correct it. In fact I think they should correct it. But using abstract terms. Not divulging more personal information about a particular client.

For those of us who don’t know the full details can you tell us what details they released? I’m very much with Wim on the face value of this discussion but the details of what Centerlink released don’t seem to have been mentioned & I think its very important part of the story.

Innuendo will get you anywhere you want to go, but others might want to look at the facts of the health system

In Estimates today, in regard to private health cover downgrades and people left without cover, Di Natale said that it was a spectacular failure of public policy. A lot of fire in the Health Estimates. Expect Sean Parnell to give it a run in the Australian soon.

Did he mention whether au pair’s would be covered?
I imagine it would be hard to pay for private health cover on $4 an hour.

In Estimates today, in regard to private health cover downgrades and people left without cover, Di Natale said that it was a spectacular failure of public policy.
A lot of fire in the Health Estimates. Expect Sean Parnell to give it a run in the Australian soon.

My premiums have just gone up 9%. Considering removing the extras bit. Might scrub the lot depending on the status of the local hospital 200 metres away.

Someone said at Estimates that capacity for private health patients in public hospitals to bill private insurer. Some capacity, amount is small and must be dedicated to research at the hospital, not hospital costs. That is the deal that private insurers secured.

Watch out for proposals to deregulate private health premiums. It came up in Estimates today, a Ministerial Advisory Council is due to report. There is also pressure to force private health cover patients out of public hospitals. When the gap gets lowered, when there are enough beds for the paramedics to place patients and when some private hospitals can match the specialist services of public hospitals. ..... That might work for the eastern suburbs.

That will just drive people out of private health cover. Which would be a good thing IMHO.
Less govt money to private health insurance companies, less unnecessary intervention consultants and surgery with an associated medicare component. More money for public health.
Win win.

Assuming they take the money from private health and put it back into health.

Watch out for proposals to deregulate private health premiums. It came up in Estimates today, a Ministerial Advisory Council is due to report.
There is also pressure to force private health cover patients out of public hospitals. When the gap gets lowered, when there are enough beds for the paramedics to place patients and when some private hospitals can match the specialist services of public hospitals. …
That might work for the eastern suburbs.

Watch out for proposals to deregulate private health premiums. It came up in Estimates today, a Ministerial Advisory Council is due to report. There is also pressure to force private health cover patients out of public hospitals. When the gap gets lowered, when there are enough beds for the paramedics to place patients and when some private hospitals can match the specialist services of public hospitals. ..... That might work for the eastern suburbs.

That will just drive people out of private health cover. Which would be a good thing IMHO.
Less govt money to private health insurance companies, less unnecessary intervention consultants and surgery with an associated medicare component. More money for public health.
Win win.

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

I’ll go for clarity too, but I’m going to fail.
Notwithstanding that I think the robodebt program is absolutely disgraceful:

You say releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.
You’re not ‘accepting that, kinda…’, it seems to be a very firm conviction of yours.

My position is that if someone identifies themselves and their situation, then the information is no longer confidential. Quite obviously it’s not.
They’ve just chosen to share it with the public.
The department haven’t just said, ‘Hey everyone, check out this welfare fraud,’ they’re responding to information already released by the person.
Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

She put SOME information out there. The department put MORE information about her out there.

That’s a breach of her privacy by them. She can say what she likes about herself. They can discuss in an abstract manner the information she has put in the public domain. They cant provide more information that she hasn’t released.

Yes, I understand that a lot of people think that way.
I’ll repeat.

Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

No I didn’t say the department shouldn’t correct it. In fact I think they should correct it. But using abstract terms. Not divulging more personal information about a particular client.

Okay.
If you think they gave more information than was relevant to her complaint, then I’d agree with that.
Not if it wasn’t.
Which is an entirely different thing to ‘just the things she disclosed.’

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

I’ll go for clarity too, but I’m going to fail.
Notwithstanding that I think the robodebt program is absolutely disgraceful:

You say releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.
You’re not ‘accepting that, kinda…’, it seems to be a very firm conviction of yours.

My position is that if someone identifies themselves and their situation, then the information is no longer confidential. Quite obviously it’s not.
They’ve just chosen to share it with the public.
The department haven’t just said, ‘Hey everyone, check out this welfare fraud,’ they’re responding to information already released by the person.
Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

She put SOME information out there. The department put MORE information about her out there.

That’s a breach of her privacy by them. She can say what she likes about herself. They can discuss in an abstract manner the information she has put in the public domain. They cant provide more information that she hasn’t released.

Yes, I understand that a lot of people think that way.
I’ll repeat.

Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

No I didn’t say the department shouldn’t correct it. In fact I think they should correct it. But using abstract terms. Not divulging more personal information about a particular client.

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

I’ll go for clarity too, but I’m going to fail.
Notwithstanding that I think the robodebt program is absolutely disgraceful:

You say releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.
You’re not ‘accepting that, kinda…’, it seems to be a very firm conviction of yours.

My position is that if someone identifies themselves and their situation, then the information is no longer confidential. Quite obviously it’s not.
They’ve just chosen to share it with the public.
The department haven’t just said, ‘Hey everyone, check out this welfare fraud,’ they’re responding to information already released by the person.
Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

She put SOME information out there. The department put MORE information about her out there.

That’s a breach of her privacy by them. She can say what she likes about herself. They can discuss in an abstract manner the information she has put in the public domain. They cant provide more information that she hasn’t released.

Yes, I understand that a lot of people think that way.
I’ll repeat.

Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

I’ll go for clarity too, but I’m going to fail.
Notwithstanding that I think the robodebt program is absolutely disgraceful:

You say releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.
You’re not ‘accepting that, kinda…’, it seems to be a very firm conviction of yours.

My position is that if someone identifies themselves and their situation, then the information is no longer confidential. Quite obviously it’s not.
They’ve just chosen to share it with the public.
The department haven’t just said, ‘Hey everyone, check out this welfare fraud,’ they’re responding to information already released by the person.
Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

She put SOME information out there. The department put MORE information about her out there.

That’s a breach of her privacy by them. She can say what she likes about herself. They can discuss in an abstract manner the information she has put in the public domain. They cant provide more information that she hasn’t released.

Ah, nice to know you can criticise a government department, but, they may release your records...

Wait for the “She would have nothing to worry about if she has nothing to hide”.

■■■■■■ reprehensible.

Again, I have no problem with a government department correcting false claims against them.
If that’s all they’re doing.

‘Can’t comment on individual cases’, unless…

https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2017/02/26/is-this-what-happens-when-you-criticise-government/

…you go to the papes and you’re full of ■■■■.
After reading that I’m still no closer to having a problem with Centrelink’s actions.

I think it’s a disgrace that they did it.

K.

I agree entirely. They’re not protecting their business or image. They are supposed to be there to help.

It must break all ethics/morals if not outright their privacy policy.

It also depletes trust with user base

I cant work out how its not against the act.

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

I’ll go for clarity too, but I’m going to fail.
Notwithstanding that I think the robodebt program is absolutely disgraceful:

You say releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.
You’re not ‘accepting that, kinda…’, it seems to be a very firm conviction of yours.

My position is that if someone identifies themselves and their situation, then the information is no longer confidential. Quite obviously it’s not.
They’ve just chosen to share it with the public.
The department haven’t just said, ‘Hey everyone, check out this welfare fraud,’ they’re responding to information already released by the person.
Now if that information isn’t correct, or gives a false impression, you think the Department shouldn’t correct it.
Okay.
I understand your position.
I disagree.

Yes, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. That's okay.

Possibly.

To make it short:

Releasing confidential info without consent is wrong.

Releasing confidential info without consent when in the past you’ve refused to release similar info (that could be embarrassing to you) by citing privacy concerns is wrong and also hypocritical.

Yes, I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying.
That’s okay.

Ah, nice to know you can criticise a government department, but, they may release your records...

Wait for the “She would have nothing to worry about if she has nothing to hide”.

■■■■■■ reprehensible.

Again, I have no problem with a government department correcting false claims against them.
If that’s all they’re doing.

‘Can’t comment on individual cases’, unless…

https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2017/02/26/is-this-what-happens-when-you-criticise-government/

…you go to the papes and you’re full of ■■■■.
After reading that I’m still no closer to having a problem with Centrelink’s actions.

I think it’s a disgrace that they did it.

K.

I agree entirely. They’re not protecting their business or image. They are supposed to be there to help.

It must break all ethics/morals if not outright their privacy policy.

It also depletes trust with user base

Especially when they spent the entire time during the robo-billing scandal bleating ‘privacy policy prevents us from discussing individual cases’

Yeah, unless it suits you. Arseholes.

I respect that you guys see it differently.
But HM, I feel like you’re having it both ways with that comment.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve heard the horror stories too and they’re appalling.
But either you think it’s okay to discuss details or it’s not.
It sounds like you’re suggesting it’s okay to discuss details (presumably without consent) so long as it turns out there’s been no wrongdoing on the part of the complainant.

That’s got me almost completely backwards.

People have come forward publicly in the media to complain about centrelink. they have demanded answers and centrelink has cited privacy to avoid discussing their cases. I can accept that, kinda. I don’t know if any of the complainants have given permission for centrelink to discuss their cases publicly in the hopes of getting a straight answer, but it wouldn’t surprise me, and if this did happen, centrelinks behaviour got a level more reprehensible.

But then this person complains and centrelink unilaterally throws their privacy policy out the window in order to background a journalist for a hit piece on her, completely without consent or permission

Part of the scandal is that centrelink feels just fine about broadcasting your private info whenever they feel like it might politically suit them, but the other part is the sheer hypocrisy of their interpretation of their privacy policy. It seems to be a case of ‘case histories can be released whoever we feel like it but privacy is sacrosanct if it suits us to keep things hidden’

Like I said, arseholes.

Ah, nice to know you can criticise a government department, but, they may release your records...

Wait for the “She would have nothing to worry about if she has nothing to hide”.

■■■■■■ reprehensible.

Again, I have no problem with a government department correcting false claims against them.
If that’s all they’re doing.

‘Can’t comment on individual cases’, unless…

https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2017/02/26/is-this-what-happens-when-you-criticise-government/

…you go to the papes and you’re full of ■■■■.
After reading that I’m still no closer to having a problem with Centrelink’s actions.

I think it’s a disgrace that they did it.

K.

I agree entirely. They’re not protecting their business or image. They are supposed to be there to help.

It must break all ethics/morals if not outright their privacy policy.

It also depletes trust with user base

Especially when they spent the entire time during the robo-billing scandal bleating ‘privacy policy prevents us from discussing individual cases’

Yeah, unless it suits you. Arseholes.

I respect that you guys see it differently.
But HM, I feel like you’re having it both ways with that comment.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve heard the horror stories too and they’re appalling.
But either you think it’s okay to discuss details or it’s not.
It sounds like you’re suggesting it’s okay to discuss details (presumably without consent) so long as it turns out there’s been no wrongdoing on the part of the complainant.