Apologies all for the very long delay in responding to this. I was away from Blitz for a chunk of December and mid-January, and somehow missed the thread when I came back. Quite a bit to reply to, so I've tried to make it easier to follow. Sorry for the long thread. So, I said:
Ironically, having in the past been a big defender I'm far more in the "sack Dodorro" camp than I used to be. Problem is I don't know to what degree he sets the list management goals, versus the head coach/CEO/Board, and he's just responsible for implementing them. But our list management strategy has got it very wrong (partly with hindsight of course).
im interested to hear how our list management has been bad, i think its been quite good, especially the past two drafts
Just focussing on the last three years, and assuming there was nothing to be done to keep Crameri/Ryder/Melksham/Carlisle and that he can't foresee injuries (e.g. Belly's contract for output was overs, but he couldn't predict the injury). This does assume hindsight - but that is what we're paying people for. To make the right call at the right time. As I said, I don't know who set the direction and that may not have been Dodorro. But these are the problems the list has had.
Failed to get value on the Crameri trade.
Failed to get value on the Ryder trade.
Only took 2 kids in the national draft in both of 2013 and 2014.
Approach of taking older players such as Chapman, Cooney, Gwilt and Giles in 2013 and 2014.
Failing to identify Giles wasn't good enough.
Extended Kommer's contract by two years in 2013 (so it ended in 2016).
Gave Pears a two year contract in 2013.
Failed to identify that Dalgiesh, NOB, Kav, Hams, Browne, Stein, Aylett weren't up to it sooner.
Getting us into a position where with Carlisle's defection, we literally had only 4 KP players on the main list - which includes Pears.
The Edwards/Aylett deal. One of them needs to make it to justify it.
Convincing Connor McKenna to select Essendon.
Any others from a list management (non-drafting) point of view?
And I probably missed adding in that keeping Winderlich on the list, and if the rumours were true about possible trades not accepting them for Howlett and Dempsey.
Also, and I know this is a tough one, we haven't really got any good young players in via trades. Most of the top teams have been able to identify at least one, often more, players at other clubs which will perform better elsewhere and recruited them. Hawthorn and Sydney are the kings of it, but a number of other clubs have done it as well. We only ever seem to get duds or older players from other clubs.
Comments on my original post:
I think that's a really harsh and surprisingly blinkered assessment.
Were we in any position (due to external pressures and climate at the time) to get value for Crameri/Ryder?
Taking issue with only taking kids for the last few drafts is a complete hindsight call. What you're saying is that the club was in no position to take mature age players because the club was nowhere near challenging at the time - I think that would be a very debatable position.
Did we get value for Melksham?
Did we get value for Carlisle?
Hasn't Giles been picked up by this years Runners Up to fill a gap in their list?
You could argue that the club should have cut more borderline players earlier. But you could also argue that doing so may well have completely broken an already very vulnerable group of people.
Geez. They haven't got everything right. But I think they made sound decisions a lot of the time with the information that was available at the time.
How do you get value for trades when the whole 'players could be banned for 2 years' is looming over their heads?
2 kids in 2013/14? the club deemed we could have a tilt at a flag, which we probably could have if we didn't get asada'd as bad as we were.
old players? as above.
giles? didn't know he was spudding it until he got here.
dismissing kids? we had draft sanctions whats the point of turfing players for picks 60-90.
carlisles a flog, was only a matter of time until he high tailed it like ryder.
Im not giving them a free pass we've had issue but those issues stem from places outside list management, and more the overall issues of the cub.
Could we have made a tilt at a flag? maybe can't say got asada.
Did the list management act in accordance with the direction of the coach and board? seems so.
Does the above mean that list management failed? or was the direction given to them a failure? this is the more important question.
Ants, who ever you are !! You are clearly delusional....just a hindsight expert....the crap you spun is amazing ..... Nick Kommer had a brilliant first year, injuries happen, Cramari, could have went pre season draft, we got Zac Merrett for him, you flog! Ryder was taking us to court, we didn't have a leg to stand on yet we got Langford and Cooney.. Plus with the Ryder money we got Luenberger as a free agent ...you Flog!! We had severe sanctions, club needed the players together, lost picks hence having two picks in 13 and 14, yet we got Zack, Fanta langers and laverde...what a brilliant out come...you hindsight flog!! Incidently We got Giles for nothing, when Ryder walked...and traded him for Mitch Brown...you flog!! Seriously I hate critical imbicile supporters who have no idea.... We would have been contending if it wasn't for the ASADA crap!! Ryder, Carlise Cramari, plus 4 early draft Picks, plus a star player who would have wanted to,come...12 months ago 30 points up at half time v North in a final.... How we forget!! Let's give the club the chance to get some continuity and stability for a couple of years and see what happens....you flog!!!! Sorry mr ants or is it smarty pants!!! You flog!!
There were also a whole heap of others mentioning me being a hindsight wizard.
So to begin with - yes, I'm being a hindsight wizard. Asbol-bloody-lutely. Because that is the list manager's job. It isn't to say - well we'll change this, and hope for the best. The list manager has to predict how things will be. They need to predict where holes in our list will be, who is up for it/isn't, who will be good on other lists who isn't currently fully appreciated, how to shape the list to become and stay a premiership contender. Any fool can keep a guy on the list for 7 years, and then realise they don't have it and cut them. A club on top of its list management identifies that earlier, and wastes less years. They don't recruit in a ruckman who despite being fully fit and needed isn't played because the coaches don't rate him. That's a failure. Recruiting as if the club is going for a premiership and missing by the length of the 8 is also a failure.
So when we topped up on older players at the cost of youth, when we didn't cut guys who didn't/won't make it earlier for youth, when we talked players like Winders to keep playing and Howlett who was fringe to sign with us, all of those were on the basis that we believed we were in the window. Whoever made that call was wrong.
Now, I've tried to be very clear I don't know if Dodorro had responsibility for all those elements. But whoever did - failed.
"Were we in any position (due to external pressures and climate at the time) to get value for Crameri/Ryder?"..."Did we get value for Melksham?" ... "Did we get value for Carlisle?".
If we had refused to deal on Crameri for the low cost, the Bulldogs have to either walk away or get a reasonable deal. The same on Ryder. For a number of possible reasons - we didn't. Now, maybe the board/management said we couldn't afford the ill-will or a law suit and gave Dodorro orders. Or maybe they just capitulated. But it had ramifications for the Bulldogs deal, for Ryder's deal, for Carlisle's deal. And I consider what we got for Carlisle barely adequate.
Melksham was a fair deal.
Hahaha that is some very funny posting by Ants. Well done, you sucked a few people in to your joke, they actually thought you were serious!
I was completely serious.
I would point out that in the original post I asked others to point out successes we've had from a list management point of view. Its interesting that nobody has been able to point to any.