Apologies all for the very long delay in responding to this. I was away from Blitz for a chunk of December and mid-January, and somehow missed the thread when I came back. Quite a bit to reply to, so Iâve tried to make it easier to follow. Sorry for the long thread. So, I said:
And I probably missed adding in that keeping Winderlich on the list, and if the rumours were true about possible trades not accepting them for Howlett and Dempsey.Just focussing on the last three years, and assuming there was nothing to be done to keep Crameri/Ryder/Melksham/Carlisle and that he can't foresee injuries (e.g. Belly's contract for output was overs, but he couldn't predict the injury). This does assume hindsight - but that is what we're paying people for. To make the right call at the right time. As I said, I don't know who set the direction and that may not have been Dodorro. But these are the problems the list has had.Ironically, having in the past been a big defender I'm far more in the "sack Dodorro" camp than I used to be. Problem is I don't know to what degree he sets the list management goals, versus the head coach/CEO/Board, and he's just responsible for implementing them. But our list management strategy has got it very wrong (partly with hindsight of course).im interested to hear how our list management has been bad, i think its been quite good, especially the past two draftsFailures
Failed to get value on the Crameri trade.
Failed to get value on the Ryder trade.
Only took 2 kids in the national draft in both of 2013 and 2014.
Approach of taking older players such as Chapman, Cooney, Gwilt and Giles in 2013 and 2014.
Failing to identify Giles wasnât good enough.
Extended Kommerâs contract by two years in 2013 (so it ended in 2016).
Gave Pears a two year contract in 2013.
Failed to identify that Dalgiesh, NOB, Kav, Hams, Browne, Stein, Aylett werenât up to it sooner.
Getting us into a position where with Carlisleâs defection, we literally had only 4 KP players on the main list - which includes Pears.Juries out
The Edwards/Aylett deal. One of them needs to make it to justify it.Successes
Convincing Connor McKenna to select Essendon.
Any others from a list management (non-drafting) point of view?
Also, and I know this is a tough one, we havenât really got any good young players in via trades. Most of the top teams have been able to identify at least one, often more, players at other clubs which will perform better elsewhere and recruited them. Hawthorn and Sydney are the kings of it, but a number of other clubs have done it as well. We only ever seem to get duds or older players from other clubs.
Comments on my original post:
I think that's a really harsh and surprisingly blinkered assessment.Were we in any position (due to external pressures and climate at the time) to get value for Crameri/Ryder?
Taking issue with only taking kids for the last few drafts is a complete hindsight call. What youâre saying is that the club was in no position to take mature age players because the club was nowhere near challenging at the time - I think that would be a very debatable position.
Did we get value for Melksham?
Did we get value for Carlisle?
Hasnât Giles been picked up by this years Runners Up to fill a gap in their list?You could argue that the club should have cut more borderline players earlier. But you could also argue that doing so may well have completely broken an already very vulnerable group of people.
Geez. They havenât got everything right. But I think they made sound decisions a lot of the time with the information that was available at the time.
How do you get value for trades when the whole 'players could be banned for 2 years' is looming over their heads? 2 kids in 2013/14? the club deemed we could have a tilt at a flag, which we probably could have if we didn't get asada'd as bad as we were. old players? as above. giles? didn't know he was spudding it until he got here. kommer/pears agreed. dismissing kids? we had draft sanctions whats the point of turfing players for picks 60-90. carlisles a flog, was only a matter of time until he high tailed it like ryder.Im not giving them a free pass weâve had issue but those issues stem from places outside list management, and more the overall issues of the cub.
Could we have made a tilt at a flag? maybe canât say got asada.
Did the list management act in accordance with the direction of the coach and board? seems so.
Does the above mean that list management failed? or was the direction given to them a failure? this is the more important question.
Ants, who ever you are !! You are clearly delusional....just a hindsight expert....the crap you spun is amazing ..... Nick Kommer had a brilliant first year, injuries happen, Cramari, could have went pre season draft, we got Zac Merrett for him, you flog! Ryder was taking us to court, we didn't have a leg to stand on yet we got Langford and Cooney.. Plus with the Ryder money we got Luenberger as a free agent ...you Flog!! We had severe sanctions, club needed the players together, lost picks hence having two picks in 13 and 14, yet we got Zack, Fanta langers and laverde...what a brilliant out come...you hindsight flog!! Incidently We got Giles for nothing, when Ryder walked...and traded him for Mitch Brown...you flog!! Seriously I hate critical imbicile supporters who have no idea.... We would have been contending if it wasn't for the ASADA crap!! Ryder, Carlise Cramari, plus 4 early draft Picks, plus a star player who would have wanted to,come...12 months ago 30 points up at half time v North in a final.... How we forget!! Let's give the club the chance to get some continuity and stability for a couple of years and see what happens....you flog!!!! Sorry mr ants or is it smarty pants!!! You flog!!There were also a whole heap of others mentioning me being a hindsight wizard.
So to begin with - yes, Iâm being a hindsight wizard. Asbol-â â â â â â -lutely. Because that is the list managerâs job. It isnât to say - well weâll change this, and hope for the best. The list manager has to predict how things will be. They need to predict where holes in our list will be, who is up for it/isnât, who will be good on other lists who isnât currently fully appreciated, how to shape the list to become and stay a premiership contender. Any fool can keep a guy on the list for 7 years, and then realise they donât have it and cut them. A club on top of its list management identifies that earlier, and wastes less years. They donât recruit in a ruckman who despite being fully fit and needed isnât played because the coaches donât rate him. Thatâs a failure. Recruiting as if the club is going for a premiership and missing by the length of the 8 is also a failure.
So when we topped up on older players at the cost of youth, when we didnât cut guys who didnât/wonât make it earlier for youth, when we talked players like Winders to keep playing and Howlett who was fringe to sign with us, all of those were on the basis that we believed we were in the window. Whoever made that call was wrong.
Now, Iâve tried to be very clear I donât know if Dodorro had responsibility for all those elements. But whoever did - failed.
âWere we in any position (due to external pressures and climate at the time) to get value for Crameri/Ryder?ââŚâDid we get value for Melksham?â ⌠âDid we get value for Carlisle?â.
If we had refused to deal on Crameri for the low cost, the Bulldogs have to either walk away or get a reasonable deal. The same on Ryder. For a number of possible reasons - we didnât. Now, maybe the board/management said we couldnât afford the ill-will or a law suit and gave Dodorro orders. Or maybe they just capitulated. But it had ramifications for the Bulldogs deal, for Ryderâs deal, for Carlisleâs deal. And I consider what we got for Carlisle barely adequate.
Melksham was a fair deal.
Hahaha that is some very funny posting by Ants. Well done, you sucked a few people in to your joke, they actually thought you were serious!I was completely serious.
I would point out that in the original post I asked others to point out successes weâve had from a list management point of view. Its interesting that nobody has been able to point to any.
I think you are completely ignoring the handicap the saga has had on list management.
- Severely reduced our negotiating position on trades - Carlisle, Ryder, Crameri
- Severely reduced our ability to attract players - KP / Midfield
- Pushed top end talent away - Ryder* & Carlisle (*depending on which rumor you believe)
- Draft plan completely derailed. - KP renewal delayed.
- Unable to cut deeply during the saga in order to maintain playing group moral. Allowed us to keep key players at the expense of holding onto weaker guys. If the club had cut at the wrong time, loyalty would have evaporated and the club imploded.
- Experienced players needed as insurance and as a gesture to the 34 that success was still possible.
So imagine now if the Saga TM hadnât happened, youâd probably have a scenario like:
- Crameri gone at higher trade value.
- Ryder either stayed or higher trade value.
- Carlisle likely to have stayed.
- 3 x extra draft picks. 2 mids, 1 KP.
- Attracted 1-2 players from other teams in trade.
- Edwards, Aylett, Giles, Chapman & Cooney not aquired.
- 4-5 players drafted each year.
- Howlett & Dempsey traded out as enough drafted / traded in talent to cover their loss.
So yes, things havenât gone perfectly over the last few years, but list management is all about risk. Only risky trades and picks were available to us as all the safe bets were either drafted early or didnât want a trade to us. If Dodoro had gone hardcore at long odds, most of them would have failed and weâd be â â â â â â â â about why he let solid players go. He did nail a few, like SMACK, Zerrett and Fanta, with promising signs from Langford and Laverde, which has probably saved us from another 5 years of misery. It would have been great if things had gone better, but Iâm just not sure how much more you realistically could do.
I agree that the saga probably knocked around all the pre-2013 plans, and up to then things seemed to be progressing nicely. The acquisition of Goddard at the end of 2012 was a coup. The loss of draft picks to either use or trade for (and I think we would have been in the zone where trading for the last pieces made sense) and the loss of key players stuffed things. They all made Dodorroâs decisions very very hard.
That being the case - as I said I think one of the key elements of the role is to accurately forecast what is coming. Do I think that was possible say at the end of 2013? No. But by the end of 2014 I think it was (Crameri & Ryder gone). And I think that and some other elements were big failures.
So for the things I do think were in his control*/remit:
- Crameri/Ryder deals. I disagree clubs had us over a barrel anywhere except the court of public opinion. Neither team could get the players through the draft/PSD. If they wanted Crameri/Ryder, they had to deal. And Ryder was contracted. We could and should have forced decent deals. Especially Crameri, as that set the tone for the Port and St Kilda to target us.
- I agree the saga hit our ability to attract players (and our coin to pay them). But I suspect young players struggling for opportunity would still have been open to coming here for that opportunity. Certainly Chapman, Giles, Gwilt, Edwards, Aylett and Cooney were. Iâm really saying the older players in that set should have been (generally) younger. 2013 was fine, but 2014 was poor. The strategy was too short-term.
- Some of the decisions around keeping players have just taken too long. Kommer getting 4 years off one semi-decent year. Pears still being on the list. No decision on Steinberg. How long NOB and others stayed. We need to get these calls right, sooner.
- The decision to convince Winders and (reputedly) Howlett and Dempsey to stay. All were poor decisions IMO.
I think a lot of the errors were in 2014. If we hadnât taken Gwilt, Cooney, Giles, let Winders go, traded Howlett and Dempsey, and held firm on Ryderâs value we might have had several more 1st and 2nd round picks to use. If Hird wasnât going to play Giles, try Gorringe, Lowden, Zac Smith, Baulderstone, etc. instead. It would have changed very little in 2015 even if WADA hadnât appealed, but the list might look a lot better. Probably only Gwilt and Howlett were contributors last year, and both could have been covered.
And to be clear, I have no issues with the drafting side. Zerrett, Langford, Laverde, McKenna, Fantasia, McKernan have all been good selections. Just imagine if heâd had a few more picks to use!
* With the proviso someone higher up didnât make the decision and over-rule. Obviously I have no idea if that happens, and everything Iâm blaming Dodorro for here could be unfair due to that. In that case, the club has some major issues with its system.
I agree that the saga probably knocked around all the pre-2013 plans, and up to then things seemed to be progressing nicely. The acquisition of Goddard at the end of 2012 was a coup. The loss of draft picks to either use or trade for (and I think we would have been in the zone where trading for the last pieces made sense) and the loss of key players stuffed things. They all made Dodorro's decisions very very hard.That being the case - as I said I think one of the key elements of the role is to accurately forecast what is coming. Do I think that was possible say at the end of 2013? No. But by the end of 2014 I think it was (Crameri & Ryder gone). And I think that and some other elements were big failures.
So for the things I do think were in his control*/remit:
- Crameri/Ryder deals. I disagree clubs had us over a barrel anywhere except the court of public opinion. Neither team could get the players through the draft/PSD. If they wanted Crameri/Ryder, they had to deal. And Ryder was contracted. We could and should have forced decent deals. Especially Crameri, as that set the tone for the Port and St Kilda to target us.
- I agree the saga hit our ability to attract players (and our coin to pay them). But I suspect young players struggling for opportunity would still have been open to coming here for that opportunity. Certainly Chapman, Giles, Gwilt, Edwards, Aylett and Cooney were. Iâm really saying the older players in that set should have been (generally) younger. 2013 was fine, but 2014 was poor. The strategy was too short-term.
- Some of the decisions around keeping players have just taken too long. Kommer getting 4 years off one semi-decent year. Pears still being on the list. No decision on Steinberg. How long NOB and others stayed. We need to get these calls right, sooner.
- The decision to convince Winders and (reputedly) Howlett and Dempsey to stay. All were poor decisions IMO.
I think a lot of the errors were in 2014. If we hadnât taken Gwilt, Cooney, Giles, let Winders go, traded Howlett and Dempsey, and held firm on Ryderâs value we might have had several more 1st and 2nd round picks to use. If Hird wasnât going to play Giles, try Gorringe, Lowden, Zac Smith, Baulderstone, etc. instead. It would have changed very little in 2015 even if WADA hadnât appealed, but the list might look a lot better. Probably only Gwilt and Howlett were contributors last year, and both could have been covered.
And to be clear, I have no issues with the drafting side. Zerrett, Langford, Laverde, McKenna, Fantasia, McKernan have all been good selections. Just imagine if heâd had a few more picks to use!
* With the proviso someone higher up didnât make the decision and over-rule. Obviously I have no idea if that happens, and everything Iâm blaming Dodorro for here could be unfair due to that. In that case, the club has some major issues with its system.
I agree with a lot of this Ants, especially with keeping players too long like Kommer and Pears, but Ryder had us bent over the barrel with the threat of playing the âcourtâ factor to get his contract voided over the Saga. We still held firm which is kudos, but we had to do a deal or risk this blowing into a shitstorm.
NFI what has gone on and is going on behind the scenes and the type of stress and pressures Adrian and his team have had to endure for 4 years.
Disgraceful to even discuss list management during this period considering the limitations and threats from player managerâs and the afl.
What a load of â â â â .
Having to top up a list twiceâŚ
Spare me.
I agree that the saga probably knocked around all the pre-2013 plans, and up to then things seemed to be progressing nicely. The acquisition of Goddard at the end of 2012 was a coup. The loss of draft picks to either use or trade for (and I think we would have been in the zone where trading for the last pieces made sense) and the loss of key players stuffed things. They all made Dodorro's decisions very very hard.That being the case - as I said I think one of the key elements of the role is to accurately forecast what is coming. Do I think that was possible say at the end of 2013? No. But by the end of 2014 I think it was (Crameri & Ryder gone). And I think that and some other elements were big failures.
So for the things I do think were in his control*/remit:
- Crameri/Ryder deals. I disagree clubs had us over a barrel anywhere except the court of public opinion. Neither team could get the players through the draft/PSD. If they wanted Crameri/Ryder, they had to deal. And Ryder was contracted. We could and should have forced decent deals. Especially Crameri, as that set the tone for the Port and St Kilda to target us.
- I agree the saga hit our ability to attract players (and our coin to pay them). But I suspect young players struggling for opportunity would still have been open to coming here for that opportunity. Certainly Chapman, Giles, Gwilt, Edwards, Aylett and Cooney were. Iâm really saying the older players in that set should have been (generally) younger. 2013 was fine, but 2014 was poor. The strategy was too short-term.
- Some of the decisions around keeping players have just taken too long. Kommer getting 4 years off one semi-decent year. Pears still being on the list. No decision on Steinberg. How long NOB and others stayed. We need to get these calls right, sooner.
- The decision to convince Winders and (reputedly) Howlett and Dempsey to stay. All were poor decisions IMO.
I think a lot of the errors were in 2014. If we hadnât taken Gwilt, Cooney, Giles, let Winders go, traded Howlett and Dempsey, and held firm on Ryderâs value we might have had several more 1st and 2nd round picks to use. If Hird wasnât going to play Giles, try Gorringe, Lowden, Zac Smith, Baulderstone, etc. instead. It would have changed very little in 2015 even if WADA hadnât appealed, but the list might look a lot better. Probably only Gwilt and Howlett were contributors last year, and both could have been covered.
And to be clear, I have no issues with the drafting side. Zerrett, Langford, Laverde, McKenna, Fantasia, McKernan have all been good selections. Just imagine if heâd had a few more picks to use!
* With the proviso someone higher up didnât make the decision and over-rule. Obviously I have no idea if that happens, and everything Iâm blaming Dodorro for here could be unfair due to that. In that case, the club has some major issues with its system.
I agree with a lot of this Ants, especially with keeping players too long like Kommer and Pears, but Ryder had us bent over the barrel with the threat of playing the âcourtâ factor to get his contract voided over the Saga. We still held firm which is kudos, but we had to do a deal or risk this blowing into a shitstorm.
Sure, it was a risk. But my understanding is we thought we would win the court case, and would Port really want such a chunk of the salary cap tied up in a âpossible acquisitionâ for months in a court case? With Ryder not being able to train with them until it was settled? I think they were bluffing, but we refused to call it. Again, like the bulldogs the only way Port could get him was with our assistance.
It would have been risky, but compared to a single pick #19 and #37 it should have been worth it.
I think youâre taking a pretty simplistic view of the Crameri and Ryder situations to be honest Ants. Whether you want to admit it or not PR was a big part of why we didnât fight harder on those two, Ryder in particular. There is no way in hell if we took Ryder to court (or even threatened to) we didnât come off as the bad guy and the club really didnât need anymore of that. I also doubt that decision was anything to do with Dodoro⌠he gets the directive from higher up and then he does the best he can with the hand he was dealt.
I think you're taking a pretty simplistic view of the Crameri and Ryder situations to be honest Ants. Whether you want to admit it or not PR was a big part of why we didn't fight harder on those two, Ryder in particular. There is no way in hell if we took Ryder to court (or even threatened to) we didn't come off as the bad guy and the club really didn't need anymore of that. I also doubt that decision was anything to do with Dodoro... he gets the directive from higher up and then he does the best he can with the hand he was dealt.Well, I've tried to be clear that I don't know whose decision it was - and if it wasn't Dodoro I may be tarring him unfairly. But I do think it was the wrong decision. Yes, some bad press would have hurt us - but would we even recognise the difference now (or much then)? The press was uniformly bad. We should have held the line like Gold Coast and GWS have done.
And I think making the stand once in 2013 would have meant we wouldnât have suffered it as bad in 2014 and 2015 as if weâd been making the stand from scratch.
I too wanted us to hold firm on the Crameri and Ryder trades. I wanted us to cut deeper and bring in new blood. I wanted us to trade fringe players that will have no impacting our next flag. But all those things can be seen as harsh and uncaring.
Successful clubs can make harsh calls because the playing group believe they will get success from the pain. If the playing group doesnât trust the direction of the list management team, they are less likely to stay. In our case, the club would have been concerned of the much publicised player exodus. The idea being to get the players to feel more loyalty, want to stay with the club and stay for less $$$. Most importantly, on a moral level we wanted to minimise the pain the playing group were experiencing.
The club could have held its ground more, it could have come out ahead, but it also could have lost the good will of the playing group. We are all worried about how many of the 12 we will lose. Imagine how many more we would lose if weâd treated the players like crap in the middle of the saga.
flogs
Delist.
I agree that the saga probably knocked around all the pre-2013 plans, and up to then things seemed to be progressing nicely. The acquisition of Goddard at the end of 2012 was a coup. The loss of draft picks to either use or trade for (and I think we would have been in the zone where trading for the last pieces made sense) and the loss of key players stuffed things. They all made Dodorro's decisions very very hard.That being the case - as I said I think one of the key elements of the role is to accurately forecast what is coming. Do I think that was possible say at the end of 2013? No. But by the end of 2014 I think it was (Crameri & Ryder gone). And I think that and some other elements were big failures.
So for the things I do think were in his control*/remit:
- Crameri/Ryder deals. I disagree clubs had us over a barrel anywhere except the court of public opinion. Neither team could get the players through the draft/PSD. If they wanted Crameri/Ryder, they had to deal. And Ryder was contracted. We could and should have forced decent deals. Especially Crameri, as that set the tone for the Port and St Kilda to target us.
- I agree the saga hit our ability to attract players (and our coin to pay them). But I suspect young players struggling for opportunity would still have been open to coming here for that opportunity. Certainly Chapman, Giles, Gwilt, Edwards, Aylett and Cooney were. Iâm really saying the older players in that set should have been (generally) younger. 2013 was fine, but 2014 was poor. The strategy was too short-term.
- Some of the decisions around keeping players have just taken too long. Kommer getting 4 years off one semi-decent year. Pears still being on the list. No decision on Steinberg. How long NOB and others stayed. We need to get these calls right, sooner.
- The decision to convince Winders and (reputedly) Howlett and Dempsey to stay. All were poor decisions IMO.
I think a lot of the errors were in 2014. If we hadnât taken Gwilt, Cooney, Giles, let Winders go, traded Howlett and Dempsey, and held firm on Ryderâs value we might have had several more 1st and 2nd round picks to use. If Hird wasnât going to play Giles, try Gorringe, Lowden, Zac Smith, Baulderstone, etc. instead. It would have changed very little in 2015 even if WADA hadnât appealed, but the list might look a lot better. Probably only Gwilt and Howlett were contributors last year, and both could have been covered.
And to be clear, I have no issues with the drafting side. Zerrett, Langford, Laverde, McKenna, Fantasia, McKernan have all been good selections. Just imagine if heâd had a few more picks to use!
* With the proviso someone higher up didnât make the decision and over-rule. Obviously I have no idea if that happens, and everything Iâm blaming Dodorro for here could be unfair due to that. In that case, the club has some major issues with its system.
I agree with a lot of this Ants, especially with keeping players too long like Kommer and Pears, but Ryder had us bent over the barrel with the threat of playing the âcourtâ factor to get his contract voided over the Saga. We still held firm which is kudos, but we had to do a deal or risk this blowing into a shitstorm.
Sure, it was a risk. But my understanding is we thought we would win the court case, and would Port really want such a chunk of the salary cap tied up in a âpossible acquisitionâ for months in a court case? With Ryder not being able to train with them until it was settled? I think they were bluffing, but we refused to call it. Again, like the bulldogs the only way Port could get him was with our assistance.It would have been risky, but compared to a single pick #19 and #37 it should have been worth it.
We also would have missed out on Langford or Laverde and Zerrett.
Just quietly we actually won the trades you are using to have a crack at Dodoro.
You're assuming we wouldn't have got more. That Bulldogs wouldn't have sweetened the deal and we got the Zerret pick and say another 2nd rounder (or equivalent). And that Port the next year seeing that would have buckled and given us the Langford pick AND another top 25 pick (or equivalent) - or Ryder wouldn't have buckled and we got the GWS deal. And maybe in 2015 we would have got pick #5 and a 2nd round pick, rather than taking on Bird and his salary requirements, losing a 3rd round pick, and moving back in the order in the second round.I agree that the saga probably knocked around all the pre-2013 plans, and up to then things seemed to be progressing nicely. The acquisition of Goddard at the end of 2012 was a coup. The loss of draft picks to either use or trade for (and I think we would have been in the zone where trading for the last pieces made sense) and the loss of key players stuffed things. They all made Dodorro's decisions very very hard.That being the case - as I said I think one of the key elements of the role is to accurately forecast what is coming. Do I think that was possible say at the end of 2013? No. But by the end of 2014 I think it was (Crameri & Ryder gone). And I think that and some other elements were big failures.
So for the things I do think were in his control*/remit:
- Crameri/Ryder deals. I disagree clubs had us over a barrel anywhere except the court of public opinion. Neither team could get the players through the draft/PSD. If they wanted Crameri/Ryder, they had to deal. And Ryder was contracted. We could and should have forced decent deals. Especially Crameri, as that set the tone for the Port and St Kilda to target us.
- I agree the saga hit our ability to attract players (and our coin to pay them). But I suspect young players struggling for opportunity would still have been open to coming here for that opportunity. Certainly Chapman, Giles, Gwilt, Edwards, Aylett and Cooney were. Iâm really saying the older players in that set should have been (generally) younger. 2013 was fine, but 2014 was poor. The strategy was too short-term.
- Some of the decisions around keeping players have just taken too long. Kommer getting 4 years off one semi-decent year. Pears still being on the list. No decision on Steinberg. How long NOB and others stayed. We need to get these calls right, sooner.
- The decision to convince Winders and (reputedly) Howlett and Dempsey to stay. All were poor decisions IMO.
I think a lot of the errors were in 2014. If we hadnât taken Gwilt, Cooney, Giles, let Winders go, traded Howlett and Dempsey, and held firm on Ryderâs value we might have had several more 1st and 2nd round picks to use. If Hird wasnât going to play Giles, try Gorringe, Lowden, Zac Smith, Baulderstone, etc. instead. It would have changed very little in 2015 even if WADA hadnât appealed, but the list might look a lot better. Probably only Gwilt and Howlett were contributors last year, and both could have been covered.
And to be clear, I have no issues with the drafting side. Zerrett, Langford, Laverde, McKenna, Fantasia, McKernan have all been good selections. Just imagine if heâd had a few more picks to use!
* With the proviso someone higher up didnât make the decision and over-rule. Obviously I have no idea if that happens, and everything Iâm blaming Dodorro for here could be unfair due to that. In that case, the club has some major issues with its system.
I agree with a lot of this Ants, especially with keeping players too long like Kommer and Pears, but Ryder had us bent over the barrel with the threat of playing the âcourtâ factor to get his contract voided over the Saga. We still held firm which is kudos, but we had to do a deal or risk this blowing into a shitstorm.
Sure, it was a risk. But my understanding is we thought we would win the court case, and would Port really want such a chunk of the salary cap tied up in a âpossible acquisitionâ for months in a court case? With Ryder not being able to train with them until it was settled? I think they were bluffing, but we refused to call it. Again, like the bulldogs the only way Port could get him was with our assistance.It would have been risky, but compared to a single pick #19 and #37 it should have been worth it.
We also would have missed out on Langford or Laverde and Zerrett.
Just quietly we actually won the trades you are using to have a crack at Dodoro.
I find it ridiculous that anyone thinks we won a trade where we lost our #1 goal kicker for the last two seasons for pick #26.
Or our #1 ruck for pick #19 and #37.
Or a 23yr old KP player who has AA written all over him, has been dominant in the past, for pick #5 but with a bunch of stuff given away as well.
Trades are separate from drafting. Did we use those picks as well as possible - very possibly (hopefully). Does that mean the original trade was fair? Hell no. Just as if weâd got multiple top 5 picks for all of them and blown them in the draft, it wouldnât mean the trades werenât won.
The clubs held us over a barrel, because the players they were trading for, could well end up being suspended.
And they were suspended.
Iâm not sure how much more Crameri was really worth anyway. Certainly not worth a first rounder, and the second rounder we got is probably gonna end up the best player on our list.
Ryder we got unders for, but still, we got their first and second round picks. Using that second round pick on a washed-up, career- finished, has-been was the real mistake, not the actual Ryder trade.
And the Carlisle trade was the swindle of the century.
I reckon weâve made out like bandits considering how it could have gone.
This is such old ground you guys are plowing over, itâs all been discussed & debated to death like ⌠fkn years ago.
Why? We did well in unparalleled circumstances, & shock horror, some things didnât pan out as they might have.
Is Dods is good. Nuf sed.
Welcome to 2016.
I think you're taking a pretty simplistic view of the Crameri and Ryder situations to be honest Ants. Whether you want to admit it or not PR was a big part of why we didn't fight harder on those two, Ryder in particular. There is no way in hell if we took Ryder to court (or even threatened to) we didn't come off as the bad guy and the club really didn't need anymore of that. I also doubt that decision was anything to do with Dodoro... he gets the directive from higher up and then he does the best he can with the hand he was dealt.Well, I've tried to be clear that I don't know whose decision it was - and if it wasn't Dodoro I may be tarring him unfairly. But I do think it was the wrong decision. Yes, some bad press would have hurt us - but would we even recognise the difference now (or much then)? The press was uniformly bad. We should have held the line like Gold Coast and GWS have done.And I think making the stand once in 2013 would have meant we wouldnât have suffered it as bad in 2014 and 2015 as if weâd been making the stand from scratch.
Yea but lets take a look at what would happen if ANY club took a player to court or refused to tradeâŚ
- Negative publicity and the difficult to deal with line.
- Risk of losing said court case
- Player could refuse to play at all
This is happening with GWS at the moment and Cam McCarthy. I know Cam is suffering mentally and taken indefinite leave, but GWS copped some slack too from this for refusing to trade him at all last year. Multiply this 10 folds in publicity because of the substance issues⌠A repeat of what happened in the next draft could really impact their club and the possibility of getting any trades done easily.
The clubs held us over a barrel, because the players they were trading for, could well end up being suspended.And they were suspended.
Iâm not sure how much more Crameri was really worth anyway. Certainly not worth a first rounder, and the second rounder we got is probably gonna end up the best player on our list.
Ryder we got unders for, but still, we got their first and second round picks. Using that second round pick on a washed-up, career- finished, has-been was the real mistake, not the actual Ryder trade.
And the Carlisle trade was the swindle of the century.
I reckon weâve made out like bandits considering how it could have gone.
Considering that Carlisle has missed training sessions, been caught taking Cocaine and is now contemplating taking St Kilda to court for no payments while suspended (unless we pay him) I would say we killed that trade and he is burning his bridges too at the SaintsâŚ
What happens out of the McCarthy situation is obviously going to be a big pointer as to whether I'm full of it, or on the money, or somewhere in between. It will be very interesting to see what happens.I think you're taking a pretty simplistic view of the Crameri and Ryder situations to be honest Ants. Whether you want to admit it or not PR was a big part of why we didn't fight harder on those two, Ryder in particular. There is no way in hell if we took Ryder to court (or even threatened to) we didn't come off as the bad guy and the club really didn't need anymore of that. I also doubt that decision was anything to do with Dodoro... he gets the directive from higher up and then he does the best he can with the hand he was dealt.Well, I've tried to be clear that I don't know whose decision it was - and if it wasn't Dodoro I may be tarring him unfairly. But I do think it was the wrong decision. Yes, some bad press would have hurt us - but would we even recognise the difference now (or much then)? The press was uniformly bad. We should have held the line like Gold Coast and GWS have done.And I think making the stand once in 2013 would have meant we wouldnât have suffered it as bad in 2014 and 2015 as if weâd been making the stand from scratch.
Yea but lets take a look at what would happen if ANY club took a player to court or refused to tradeâŚ
- Negative publicity and the difficult to deal with line.
- Risk of losing said court case
- Player could refuse to play at all
This is happening with GWS at the moment and Cam McCarthy. I know Cam is suffering mentally and taken indefinite leave, but GWS copped some slack too from this for refusing to trade him at all last year. Multiply this 10 folds in publicity because of the substance issues⌠A repeat of what happened in the next draft could really impact their club and the possibility of getting any trades done easily.
On a side note, I think 6 years from now people will look back and say pick #5 was cheap for Carlisle.
I will simply say that to think the Afl were uninterested and uninvolved bystanders in the Ryder trade drama is to overlook a very large factor. It wouldnt have been Ports bluff we would have been calling.
The âshould have stood our groundâ stuff sounds good on principle. But its pie in the sky stuff with the reality of what was going on.