Adrian Dodoro - Flankers into Mids since 2000 (Part 1)

Given the draft sanctions we copped, it’s pretty clear that our immediate future prospects of success, and perhaps also Dodoro’s legacy, are tied pretty closely to whether or not each of Langford, Laverde, Francis, Ridley, Mutch and Clarke make it as AFL footballers.

Realistically, I think we need most (if not all) of them to become best 22 by mid 2019 (at the latest) if we’re going to have a finals-worthy team.

Boy, you’re brave.

Exactly, it takes a few years to judge whether he has drafted well or not. But on what we know, if these last two drafts don’t come through then he needs to go in a couple of years.

I think if you look at his drafts 2010, 2011 and 2012 he ballsed it up and rightly should be under pressure. Finding a few wins with mature agers (howlett, hibberd, bags) has essentially hidden how bad these drafts were

2010-2012 hits: Heppell, Daniher, Gleeson
2010-2012 misses: steinberg, browne, davis, ross, kavanagh, jerret, N’OB, Ashby, van unen, kommer and gregory

So his ability to find young talent in the national draft was weak through this period. 3 wins from 14 picks and one of those a father son prospect!

2013 he went 2 from 2 and upgraded dalgleish (oops) but a good night.

2014-2016 drafts we have two confirmed wins in parish and mcgrath. Two serviceable mature agers in brown and hartley. You have eades. The rest are all still question marks: lang, lav, Redman, morgan, ridley, begley, mutch and clarke. If in two years they aren’t proven performers there needs to be a change. We can’t go forward if our we’re not getting it right on draft night.

Yes he did well holding the list together during the saga but chiefly we need hits on draft night and

No doubt F/S selections have helped us. Just as Ablett/Hawkins/Scarlett/Blakey helped Geelong, Cloke helped Collingwood, Liberatore/Wallis helped Bulldogs and Heeney/Mitchell/Mills helped Sydney. We’re not the only team to have benefited.

The simple reality is that the 2012 & 2013 midfields were amongst the top performing midfields in the league in those years. Having a go at Dodoro for not producing a decent midfield, and then saying the good years don’t count because of Watson, is pretty unfair. He knew Watson was there, take him out and surely our strategy changes.

Is Jobe the player of the 00s for us? He did nothing up until 06, and only really became top line when Hird came aboard in 2011. Has to be Fletch, Lloyd or Stanton.

If you drew the decades from 05 to 15, he’s in easy.

Also: a grand total of 2 good F/S players in a timespan of 20? years is hardly a huge catalogue. You can argue that Hird was family influenced, but fact is, he wasn’t a father son pick, and every club missed him 3 or 4 times - he went pick 79 I think.

I maintain its pretty difficult to be shyte for 15 years if you are recruiting & managing your list well. We’ve changed everything else at the club including its location yet we are right now seemingly no better off than we have been for more than a decade. Again that would be hard to do even if you had the rest of the club actively working against the talent on the list. Do people actually believe Sheedy forgot how to coach after 2000 or is it maybe possible that replacing Long with Bannister, Misiti with Bullen , Bewick with Harvey etc etc maybe just maybe saw our list a little lighter on for actual ability?

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There are a couple of things you’ve missed out of the 2010 to 2012 drafts:

  • Outside of those hits, we also drafted Hibberd, Jenkins and Bags in that period.
  • Out of those misses, only Kav was from a pick inside the top 30. The picks he was missing with were reasonably speculative.
  • Do we really consider Jerrett & Kommer recruiters’ misses? Given what we saw in 2013, I’d question the development/fitness staff not the recruiting team. Both seemed to have enough talent to make it.
  • Given Kav’s early VFL form (according to watchers) he could also potentially be put into that category. Especially as Sydney still rated the talent that if not for the trade ban he’d be a Swan.

I’ll flop it out for McGrath, Begley and Ridley. All three are legit class and the sooner they’re all in our 22 the better.

I don’t quite know what I’m looking at with Mutch and Clarke doesn’t thrill me. Draper is intriguing but a few years off yet.O

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Or maybe Rama getting cancer, Judkins forcing a sale of Hardwick/Caracella/Blumfield/Heffernen, and Winderlich being perennially injured all had an impact. Mercuri falling off a cliff was an issue too. Or maybe it was that Dodoro was part time with limited support due to our recruiting budget? I mean, how do you expect great recruiting if you’re main man isn’t even watching kids on the weekend?

And yes, the rest of the club did sabotage the results. Its called “the Saga”. When we were just near peaking, it ripped the club to shreds for 3-4 years. The fitness team being changed every year for the three years before the saga didn’t help either.

People wonder why we’re not better than we were a decade ago, and the problem is that the peak of our hill was cut right off. We lost some of the best years of Goddard, Stanton, Watson, Hurely and Hooker. We lost Ryder, Hibberd, Melksham, Carlisle and Crameri for (generally) unders, we lost a number of top end draft picks, and that is on top of already losing guys like Houli and Jenkins. We lost the capacity to attract more than fringe players, and even then there were preferred options for fringe guys.

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In my opinion Dodoro has been in his best form since the draft restrictions set in. Our problem I think is we are still gelling as a side, and we had no plan B when we are denied access to the corridor and linking up our run and carry.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the grunt of Heppell, Zerrett, Parish and Zakka or TBC or Sammy Draper. We can expect much from McGrath and will find out more about The Langford, Lav, Begley, Walla, Raz, McKenna and Colyer as midfielders as well as in their other positions (where applicable).

We do need a clearance beast or two next year to be competitive and this will be very telling. We could have been a chance of the Bont or Cripps without our draft restrictions and things could have been very different.

I would argue that Dodoro’s form is improving and we would be stupid to think about moving him.

Having to play Jobe and other returned players was a part of maintaining the fabric of this club, but now we are at a point where we can move on and to be fair it will be another 3 years before we know where we are at with regards to our list going into the future.

Without the saga we may still have Ryder and Hibberd and maybe Cripps or Bont and a lot more experience playing together as a group and things could be very different.

As things are we are waiting to see what we have in Francis, Lav, Langford and expecting improvement from McGrath and Parish and seeing who else we can get in the meantime.

Patience is required I believe.

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Look, I’ve been pretty clear. I’ve said upthread when you and I last got into this (with some very long posts I don’t really want to repeat):

  • That I believe the 2012 was poised to compete, he added Goddard, and then got torpedo’d by the saga. So I think he did deliver.
  • That I rate his drafting, and believe only a handful of recruiters have been consistently better
  • That I suspect - don’t know - that he is handcuffed significantly by our club philosophies. That up until ~2008 the goal was to make finals each year with all that implied. That we were to bring back the saga players. That we would continue to top up and “reward” the players by pushing for finals through 2013/14. If he’s driving those philosophies, fine, dump him. But if not, respect the handicaps he’s working under. As to if he is behind them or someone else, I don’t know. Some came from board level, and others likely from senior management groups including him, the coach, CEO and others.
  • That I don’t believe any club in our positions would have got more big fish than he did.

I’ve also been consistent of the view across multiple threads and years that there were certain points I’d have rebuilt by trading out players. Hille and Lucas around 2007/2008. Key players at the end of 2015. Generally, Blitz has been totally against that. Now, Blitz ain’t the club, but I do think in this area they reflect the club belief, that trading out club stalwarts for picks is not “an Essendon” thing to do. So its not like I’ve been lockstep with the EFC list management strategy. I was particularly scathing about our 2014 and 2015 approaches.

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You don’t think that’s factored into us not winning a final?

My post was directed at the main draft which is the first crack at the best youngsters. I did acknowledge Hibbo (psd) and bags (rookie) in my post, my concern is his ability to pick young talent.

I take your point about the pick numbers but you can’t build a list only on picks under 30. That’s one maybe two players per year unless you trade out a player of worth. Failed picks over 30 have to count.

As to kav, kommer and jerrett… who to put them on is an interesting question. I actually think kommer should still be on the list tbh. Green kicks more goals but kommer was far better at the chase and harrying aspect of the game. Jerret and Kav misses hurt, that’s 2 outside mids that we needed. But surely kavs kicking deficiencies and jerrets inability to find the ball were apparent earlier? You can’t say kav came right and lost his ability to kick through the ball?

OK so you honestly believe our list from 2002-2017 has been as good as 2000 bar for something to do with Judkins who had left about 5 years earlier (is he your new diversion), and some injuries to players who you are certain would have been the best players ever if not injured. OK, you’re officially deluded. Once again the saga didn’t happen until 2013. We haven’t won a final since 2004. Do you have any explanation for that given you think our list was really good?

Now you really need to find a position & stick to it. Do you want to maintain we drafted, traded & managed the list well OR do you want to use the excuse that Dodoro was under resourced & overruled by others (these mystery men)? You can’t have both. You seemed to be at least coming around to some form of reality that there’s been some issues with his dept but then went straight into deflection to the board, coach & of course the saga. I get that in the absence of any actual evidence you are going to cling to the pipe dream that the 2013-15 flags were a certainty if not for the saga but can you at least address the years before that?

I’ve posted this before but here’s the truth on Dudoro.

For every McGrath there’s a Gumbleton

For every Parish there’s a Francis

For every Zerrett theres a Morgan

Dodoro hasn’t been capable of putting together a finals winning list let alone a Premiership list in THIRTEEN YEARS!

The SAGA excuse doesn’t hold up because he still had 8 years of crap results before hand.

We will not be a finals contender let alone a premiership side with him at the club.

But the usual suspects will come in and defend him and we will be crap for another 13 years and wonder why.

Well said! He is the constant thread since 2000. His results simply don’t hold up.

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I miswrote Judkins, it was meant to be Jackson (you know, the guy who stuffed the salary cap and forced us to trade out a raft of smalls).

And where did I say the list was as good as 2000? If that’s your benchmark, a contender for the best team of the last 17 years, then mate, I’m sorry to say you’re likely to be disappointed for a long long time. Or that they’d be the best players ever? Nice way to make out I said things I didn’t, or totally misinterpret what I said.

Just to be clear:

  • I never said the list was as good as 2000
  • I never said that the list was really good from 2004 to 2011
  • I have been pretty clear in saying when the list was poised to become good, we (a) had injuries in 2012 and (b) then had the saga stuff us.
  • I never said that Winderlich, Ramanaskus, Caracella, Blumfield or Heffernen would have been the best ever player. I did say they were missed in the midfield, as was an injury struck Mercuri.
  • I never said that the 2013/15 flags were a certainty. I never even said we’d win one, just that we’d been primed to be in contention.
  • I’ve been pretty clear around Blitz that I believe in cycles, and between 2004 we were rebuilding the list. That might be why we didn’t win any finals.
  • I’ve been pretty clear that I think we’ve managed the list pretty poorly since 2013. I’ve also been clear in asking who makes those decisions on list direction, and the responses from those more in the know is that its a group of which Dodoro is only a single member. I’ve even said if its Dodoro he should be sacked.

But that last point probably distinguishes a difference between us. You don’t like what’s happened, chosen a scapegoat, and said sack him. I didn’t like some things that happened, and I asked around to try and find out who was ultimately responsible.

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A lot of the above comments are justified, so what do we do, get someone new to the role or get someone from another club? I just don’t know.

I said the list declined in talent post 2000 as a direct result of Dodoro’s list management - you made the excuse that it was injuries & Jackson (which is ironic - I will get back to that later) not the players we brought in to replace retirements, trades etc. That to me indicates you believe our list management post 2000 wasn’t a factor therefore the list was as good. I’m still not sure how else to read your position.

So the list wasn’t good between 2004-2011, we can agree on something - is it possible that the drafting from 1999 played a significant part in that? Is there some other list manager, recruiting person during that entire time other than Dodoro? Can we possibly agree then that at least 13 years of his tenure the list he in some way contributed to supplying wasn’t good? Even if you think Winders would have been a star, I don’t think you can defend the actual picks from 2000 or most of the trades so how about we agree the list declined & our recruiting declined post Judkins - can we agree on that?

When I talked about post 2000 I meant that players like Davies, Harvey, Laycock etc were not able to replace the quality we lost. I’ve never blamed Dodoro in any way for the fire sale but I have pointed out time after time that it was his job to try to replace what we lost & he never came near getting back those mids. Now I have no issue at all in agreeing that replacing all time stars is difficult but would it be fair to say we didn’t even come remotely close?

Yes Ive agreed with you that we were building towards a better side when the saga hit. I still maintained then & now that our midfield was a weakness that was going to restrict our ability to go deep into the finals. Watson was at his best & possibly the most influential player in the league 12/13. Much like Dangerfield with some help from Sellwood can now carry Geelong a fair way I think Watson carried a big load. Goddard & Heppell had good years & I’ve been a staunch defender of Stanton but I simply will never believe a midfield with Howlett, Hocking, Myers, Melksham maybe Colyer or Jerrett in it bats deep enough to have challenged sides like Hawthorn, Swans or even Freo come finals time. We’ve just seen again a real example of how far off we are when it gets serious & while I believe its very possible we could have won a final in 2013 & should have beaten North in 2014 all we really have is what might have been with no real evidence the list was capable of any finals wins. Now you may counter with the possibility that given no Saga, Dodoro would have replaced ordinary mids with better players. Again this is a possibility but there’s no evidence to support it given we know that pre-saga his drafting hadn’t fixed the issues & nothing in his trading history suggested he could complete a big name trade.

Ok so we were building the list only from 2004 is that what you’re saying? the draft picks before that don’t count? What did we do differently post 2004? When was this phase until? Even if as you say we were meant to be primed in 2013/15, don’t you think 12 years to get primed is a little too long? I know people have joked about Dodoro playing the long game but come on. Should Richmond have given Wallet & Miller another 6 years???

Now your last bullet point “we’ve managed the list poorly since 2013” intrigues me. You’ve acknowledged the list till 2011 wasn’t really good & now that we’ve managed the list poorly since 2013. That only leaves 2012 as a year when you haven’t acknowledged the list was either poor or poorly managed. So basically you are saying only 1 year out of his tenure, our list &/or list management hasn’t been poor. Was he unfarkingbelievably awesome in 2012 & that somehow makes up for the rest of his career?

Now we are left with this question about what Dodoro is actually responsible for. I’ll ask again, if you can name the person or people who have been completely undoing his work for 19 years then I’ll join forces in calling for their heads. Till then I have to place at the very least some responsibility for list management on the list manager. Maybe he’s simply the patsy for the real list manager who’s too ashamed to put his name to the decisions - who knows.

Coming back to Jackson for a second, I was 1 of the few here calling for him to be replaced 10 years ago so the idea that I have singled out Dodoro as a scapegoat in nonsense. I was also front & centre of the calls to replace Knights. I don’t recall your support in any of those positions so it seems a little hypocritical now to be saying I haven’t acknowledged every other problem the club has had. Dodoro is not solely responsible for anything, he works in a club & works with others. He is however a manager & a figure that has been at the club for a long time. He has to be accountable for a lot of the list outcomes. It was Dodoro on draft day who decided at the last second to switch from Lobb to Zerrett, if we can agree that was a great decision then why can’t we agree the poor decisions fall to him as well? Even if he’s only part of a team he’s been the one constant in that team. At some point if the team remains poor through elimination you have to look at what hasn’t changed & again there’s the fact he’s the manager.

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You do know Dodoro wasn’t list manager in the early 2000’s, right?