Sorry Saga - “It’s actually quite funny people thinking they know more than they actually do”


#2855

Don’t forget that the Russian Lab was a WADA accredited lab. Accreditation is via audit of the lab’s systems and procedures. All testing procedures are according to that listed in the relevant Pharmacopeia. These testing procedures must be validated in the test lab using international standards and independently reviewed by their peers and regulators. So, in the case of TB4, the test method is not listed in any pharmacopeia, They don’t have a standard to test it against and from what I have read the scientists do not have a clear idea what baseline levels exist in humans.

WADA are dealing with these exotic peptides in many cases using experimental methods or by identifying breakdown markers. It would be fair to say that the cutting edge sports scientists are working with peptides that in many cases have very questionable efficacy and relatively unknown safety. So the test labs are playing catchup with test methods that can “reliably” identify these peptides.

WADA accredited labs are not necessarily accredited by the likes of NATA or the TGA in Australia. These are the two highest profile regulators in Australia and have a harmonised agreement with regulators from other countries, especially for registered and listed substances/drugs etc.

Bio21, who are attached to the RMH, (and whose involvement in the saga was crucial in WADA’s case against the E34) are a research lab with many fine scientists, doctors and all the latest equipment. They work at the cutting edge of research and test development. However they would not be scrutinised/ regulated in the same way Labs that test registered or listed drugs would be. The test specifications/protocol for each drug tested is validated and results must fall within the test specifications. Because that set of compliant test results means that the batch of pharmaceuticals can be released for use in the population. Hence these Labs must be accredited by the TGA and the equipment calibrated and tested by NATA or equivalent.

WADA used the Essendon 34 to create a precedent that would do away with the need to have a positive test. The scope of testing and the cost of it would diminish if WADA and CAS continue to prove use of PEDs by this strands in the cable approach and the forever floating evidentiary standard of comfortable satisfaction.

In saying all this I am sure that the vast majority of these WADA accredited labs are good and honest operators. But they are funded in many cases by WADA (the IOC) and are therefore beholding to them.

Just as I mentioned in my previous post we have eminent, high profile, scientific/medical people in Australia who provide their knowledge and expertise to WADA, the CAS and therefore the IOC. The problem is they are too far removed from the coalface and sometimes make statements and decisions that are wrong. They escape any accountability for their lack of rigor and the people who suffer are the athletes.

Just how many lives and careers have been ruined and how many have escaped sanction because of this lack of rigor, not only in science but in regulation, policy, administration, the law, governments and their bureaucracies: need I go on.


#2856

The best and most accurate summation of Wada/Asada came from Sam Newman…“Glorified Pi$$takers”


#2857

Oh dear.

Here is an extract from The CAS judgement where The CAS are trying to justify why it plans to find 34 players guilty - note the acute lack of any real evidence to justify their position:

All Players or Some?

  1. It was next argued that, even if the Panel was entitled to conclude that Mr. Dank may have
    injected some of the Essendon players with TB-4, the evidence of use of Thymosin by any
    particular Player was not established. Indeed, the AFL did not shrink from suggesting that for
    that reason the Panel might be obliged to reject the appeal in its entirety.

  2. The Panel rejects the argument. It is obvious that Mr. Dank’s regime was not designed or
    marketed for any particular player; it was designed and marketed for the whole team and
    Thymosin was touted as the jewel in the crown of the regime (see Mr. Dank’s text message to
    Mr. Robinson of 28 August 2011 quoted in para. 120(ii). No such encomium was written in
    respect of other aspects of the regime such as AOD, which the Panel accepts some Players at
    least may also have administered. There is every reason to conclude that, given the purpose
    of the injection of Thymosin was to heal damaged tissue and to speed recovery, Mr. Dank
    would have applied it to any particular player, fit or injured, as long as playing in the first team
    or reserves or even simply undergoing the heavy training to which everyone testified, since all
    would be seen as its beneficiaries. For Mr. Dank to have arbitrarily omitted to give any player
    injection of Thymosin would have made no sense. His own reputation and future were at
    stake; he would not have abandoned what he thought (rightly or wrongly) was the most potent
    element in his regime. He may have been a rogue but there is no evidence that he was a fool.
    In a text message on 12 April 2012, Mr. Dank told Mr. Hird, “all … injections completed”, and a
    week later on 19 April 2012 wrote, “all injections completed for the week”. This supports the
    inference that this was a program in operation for all the players certainly in the early part of
    the season. It was Mr. Hille’s understanding that all Players were in the same supplementation
    program even if the dosage might be altered for particular Players. It is interesting that the
    recommendation for use of Thymosin in the consent form is said to be based on Mr. Dank’s
    knowledge of the Players’ medical and physiological history and is the intervention that “best
    suits [the Players’] needs”. There is no evidence that would justify that statement.

  3. It was suggested that Mr. Dank’s modus operandi was haphazard and the Panel is prepared to
    accept that not all of the Players appear to have received the same number of injections of the
    same substance at the same time. However, there is much contemporary evidence that Mr.
    Dank kept tabs on the Players to ensure that they did not miss their dose.
    On 20 April 2012 Mr. Melksham sent a text message to Mr. Dank asking, “Do I need to have a
    drip? Haven’t had one this week”. Mr. Dank replied, “No. Did I inject you this week?” Mr. Melksham
    said, “Two thymols”.
    On the same date, Mr. Dank sent a text message to Mr. Lonergan, another player, asking,
    “Have I given you anything this week?” Mr. Lonergan replied, “… Had recovery jab two days ago”.
    On 19 July 2012 Mr. Dank sent a text message to Mr. Hardingham, another player, stating,
    “You forgot your Thymosin”. Mr. Hardingham replied, “Na, I came in and got one with Dyso”, and
    Mr. Dank responded, “Sorry, mate. I hadn’t marked you off. My mistake”.
    On 4 July 2012 Mr. Dank told Mr. Watson that he had forgotten his shot and Mr. Watson
    responded, “we’ll do it tomorrow”, but according to Mr. Watson, he did not. Mr. Watson’s
    explanation as to why, if he had lost faith in the program, he did not simply say that he did
    not intend to receive further injections, was that it was easier to just to say “yeah, okay”, was
    not wholly convincing, but, without prejudice to that and more importantly, the interchange
    illustrates that Mr. Dank was concerned to ensure that, if possible, the Players kept to the
    program, and that in any event up to well into the season (which ran from March to
    September), Mr. Watson was still receiving injections.

  4. On 5 August 2012, Mr. Dank sent a text message to Mr. Alavi asking for “some help with this
    football team” and expressed concern about the number of soft tissue injuries. He asked Mr.
    Alavi, “Can the AOD and the Thymosin be mixed?” Mr. Alavi referred to “a new polymer which will
    provide a slow release system, while repairing damaged cell walls”. Mr. Alavi added that, “It’s amazing and being used in the USA for elite horse-racing [sic]. I can even put the thymosin and AOD in it”. From the balance of the conversation, it appeared that there had been virtually no experiment on
    humans with the new substance, so Mr. Dank said, “Let us test a couple of players”. This
    interchange suggests that “the” Thymosin was an established part of the program, to which
    Mr. Dank wished to add new elements, but without any detailed research into its properties.

  5. The Panel notes that the Players’ interviews with ASADA and the evidence that those who
    were called gave to the Panel, if taken at face value, did suggest that Mr. Dank was patchy in
    his commitment to the program. However, the Panel is disinclined to accept their statements
    as undermining the Panel’s comfortable satisfaction that all the Players, on at least one
    occasion, were injected with TB-4 (which is all that is required to allow WADA’s appeal) for
    a number of reasons:
    (i) the Players kept themselves no record;
    (ii) by the time they came to be interviewed by ASADA in May-July 2013, and asked for
    the first time to recollect events which occurred several months after the end of the
    season, their recollection could not have been precise;
    (iii) in their interviews, the Players indeed accepted an inability to be exact about the number
    or timing of injections. Their statements were replete with qualification;
    (iv) the same was apparent in the evidence that the Players gave at the hearing. The
    imperfections in the Players’ recollection of how frequently they had injections is
    illustrated, amongst other matters, by Mr. Dell’Olio’s reference to his receipt of more
    than one injection in a week as occurring “one time”, “a couple of times” and “a few times” in
    the same sequence of his oral testimony;
    (v) in the interviews, the ASADA interviewer made clear to each interviewee that he was
    being asked questions in connection with a potential anti-doping violation;
    (vi) more particularly, certain media outlets had already reported that ASADA’s
    investigation was into alleged use of TB-4, a prohibited substance. In a broadcast dated
    2 May 2013 by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (which preceded any interview),
    the reporter stated, “it is not clear from the text which form of Thymosin was used but at least one
    form Thymosin-Beta 4 is currently banned by ASADA”. Mr. Hille accepted that, at the time
    of his interview, there had been media reporting about substances that might have been
    used by the Players. Therefore, it would be quite unrealistic not to recognise that the
    Players were likely to have been appraised of the target of the investigation, either
    through having seen the relevant program itself or by discussing what it said with others.
    A natural tendency of Players in such circumstances, even if not able to predict with
    precision whether, and for use of what substances, infraction notices might be issued in
    due course would be, if not positively to mislead, at any rate, to be somewhat economical
    with the truth.
    (vii) The complete failure of the vast majority of Players who had to fill in a doping control
    form (“DCF”) during the season to reveal the receipt of injections does not encourage
    confidence in their statements as to the limited or sporadic nature of what they were
    injected with.
    (viii) Players such as Mr. McVeigh, who said that he was told he was receiving Melatonan did
    not, on his own vehement admission, experience any tanning effect from it, although
    that is one of its well-known properties. The Players after signature of their consent
    form did not know with what they were being injected and would never have been able
    to say what it was, other than from what they were told by Mr. Dank, who, once he had
    their consent, had no particular interest in giving them an accurate account.

  6. As to Messrs. Crameri and Prismall, the Panel cannot identify any fact in their cases which
    would justify the conclusion that they were themselves not subjects of the Thymosin regime.
    The former was one of those who actually saw vials of Thymosin in the refrigerator in Mr.
    Dank’s office where the injections were ordinarily administered to him and, although the latter
    only played in the second or reserve team on 21 and 28 July 2012, he accepted that he was
    training throughout. Furthermore, their injuries made them arguably even more suited to TB4
    treatment. There is, accordingly, no reason to believe why he should have been omitted
    from the programme.


#2858

“We conclude that definitely every player got TB4, and we therefore charge just 34 of them.”

They’re not good on consistency…


#2859

The justification for charging all 34 is so scandalous that it suggests strongly that nothing much that took place at the CAS hearing mattered as their desire to provide an example was so preset that they would’ve found a way.
According to CAS winning a few games at the start because they were all on PEDs, one of which was going to support soft tissue healing, and then the team falls over with numerous soft tissue injuries, and Dank’s efforts to respond are also more evidence that he’s cheating. It’s just such erratic reasoning from professionals.
It’s difficult to accept that the CAS decision process can’t be exposed for what it is - judicial cheating.


#2860

The accused wasn’t sure whether he was near the offence on the day in question, therefore he actually committed the offence.

Also, we have numerous texts talking about burgers. Which sounds a whole lot like murder.

Well, ■■■■ me, I’m convinced.


#2861

The CAS dismissed the vial of thymomodulin by simply ignoring it:

140:

…There was at any rate a symmetry between the vials in which the substance was contained and those which some of the Players saw in the fridge at Essendon in Mr. Dank’s office.


#2862

considering the media were all reporting that they were on growth hormones & AOD xxx with never a mention of TB4 until they couldn’t come up with anything else & only fixated on TB4 because of the insistence the Thymosin they were taking was not Thymomodulin but the only banned sound alike they could find TB4 insisting that players texted Thymosin or Thymo when anyone knows they would have used TB4 in a text if that is what they were talking about …as for reasonable assumptions don’t get me started on what is reasonable or not!!


#2863

so how do they explain other teams good runs of wins until halfway through the year when injuries hit or better teams get to play them??


#2864

When people say to me Jobe received all his votes early in the season (2012) while he was on supplements and almost nothing for the second half when he wasn’t, I point out Nat Fyfe’s winning year. 2 votes from the last 9 games and then I ask them “what was Fyfe on?”.
Then I point to 2000. The winner rec’d 24 votes that year.
In the 2 years before and 2 years after his win his total votes were 17.
17 votes in 4 years!
Average 4.25 votes per year.
In 2000 he gets 24.
Christ, it still makes me angry.


#2865

Hmmm…Probably not a good example.

Didn’t Woewodin credit his performance that year to his dietitian/supplement guy. The same guy Hird used and was to some degree mixed up in the supplements saga.

On a side note Woewodin did have an exceptional year. I had him in a fantasy league. His number were outstanding that year.


#2866

That was the one the one and the only Shane Charters. Mate of Dean Robbo’s?


#2867

20 am

The agency also pointed to “little if any evidence of supervision or executive oversight” of team doctors.

Ukad said its inquiry had been “hampered” by poor record-keeping and the cross-over between personnel at British Cycling and Team Sky, a view reinforced in the strongly worded letter its chief executive Nicole Sapstead sent to her counterpart at the governing body, Julie Harrington in November.


#2868

#2869

‘Earlier this month, Fancy Bears released IOC correspondence appearing to show that Canadian lawyer Richard McLaren had been given a “clear political order” to file a report to ensure Russia’s expulsion from the 2016 Games’

My tin foil hat is telling me it appeared that McDevitt was given ‘a clear political order’ too.


#2870

Plus $US100,000 fro Sussan Ley


#2871

it’s all gone quiet in here forces me to look at the other threads too LOL


#2872

Been jumping up and down about this for years. It’s so obvious, and IMO ties into the current bullshit people are pushing about Russia intefering with how the Earth spins on its axis.


#2873

what is happening with that Jackson Taylor stuff?


#2874

Still happening as far as I am aware.
Time is of the essence if you hasten slowly.