Sorry Saga - “It’s actually quite funny people thinking they know more than they actually do”


#7321

#7322

Treated worse for having an assumed natural advantage than someone who dopes with testosterone. Banned for life in certain international events unless she takes drugs on an ongoing basis which could be potentially harmful to health…
No connection made with male athletes such as Ian Thorpe who had higher than normal natural testosterone levels.


#7323

Things that make you go hmmm


#7324

And Michael Phelps who genetically had a lactic acid deficiency. This meant he built up lactic acid twice as slow as the average swimmer.


#7325

And Lance Armstrong who had a greater VO2 max than other cyclists enabling more efficient oxygen intake to his blood stream …:shushing_face:


#7326

at the height of the saga someone said “It will go. Like the bird just going past you, it will go."
It seems it mostly has.


#7327

Yes, but that bird dropped a big pile of guano that has not yet been cleaned up.


#7328

yeh but its different an she is smashing all the women its not a fair playing field.
either she races amongst her “Category” or she confirms within the new regime.
Imo she will probably still win, it just wont be by as much.

Just imagine you had a daughter who could be a gold medallist except for semenya beating her due to her “advantages”

The other side can of worms is you let other women athletes use testosterone to boost their levels.


#7329

Should not be allowed to race. Fark equality in this case, there is a clear advantage here.


#7330

Fair size differential on the other women

Bit like old mate Mouncey


#7331

What to do about the dominance of athletes of African origin in track events?


#7332

I know that the ones that are born with a ■■■■■ run in the male events and the ones without run in the female events. If not, what is the point of having separate events in any sport?


#7333

Except that, in the female events, there is now a new sub-category of DSD female in those international track events ,as deemed by the IAAF, to exclude those of the female sex deemed by the IAAF to have a natural advantage.
Instead of the male/female events, perhaps we need handicap events based on natural advantage.


#7334

I’ve always thought the call here was clear from the start.

If you have Testes, actively producing testosterone, rather than Ovaries, and their associated Estrogen, … then you should not be competing against those that don’t.

If Caster wants to compete against females, she should remove or otherwise deactivate the Testosterone producing Testes. Right?/


#7335

War on drugs now war on genetic anomalies.

CAS covering themselves in glory again.

Eugenics lives.


#7336

Semenya brought the controversy when she competed.
There are mens / womens races for a reason (women generally cant compete due to physical differences). Yes i am aware of women winning ultra maratahons and beating all the men and women well done.

There is also a big controversy around marathon running (not elite), as some men have “identified as women” to gain access into the boston marathon as the womens good for age times are easier to achieve than the mens good for age. Robbing good women of a place in the field and making the qualifying standards harefer for them to achieve.

Have a look at Paula Radcliffes twitter

its a can of worms.

something should have been done about semenya earlier, but they didnt seem to care when she was beatbale,

Semenya isnt the first either.


#7337

Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness

A few quick thoughts on the Caster Semenya decision.

  1. First and foremost, sympathy and adminiration towards Semenya should be expressed. She’s done nothing wrong. Has withstood immense criticism and having her personal details available to the world.
    10:23 AM - 1 May 2019

  2. This was a no-win scenario. There was no easy or “right” decision. Sport is being forced to draw a clear line when the reality is there is no easy delineation, it’s a blurry one.
    1 reply 31 retweets 336 likes
    Steve Magness
    ‏Verified account @stevemagness
    May 1

  3. Why do we regulate only this genetic advantage?
    we have divisions based on sex. And there is NO all-encompassing biological marker to differentiate the two. We use testosterone as a surrogate marker. If the IAAF used chromosomes for example, Semenya wouldnt be able to compete
    19 replies 39 retweets 286 likes
    Steve Magness
    ‏Verified account @stevemagness
    May 1

4-We don’t differentiate height, arm length, etc. because it’s not the marker for sex that is utilized. Argue over whether T should be that marker, fine.

But that’s the reason it’s used. No different than in boxing weight is a surrogate for bigger guys have an advantage.
2 replies 30 retweets 226 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

5- It’s easy to call discrimination, especially with only select events being regulated, but… the reason only the 400-1,500m events are regulated is because the CAS required “evidence” of an advantage. The data pointed to these events. The IAAF wanted the rule across all events
11 replies 31 retweets 177 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

  1. Evidence of an advantage is nearly impossible to study.

It seems simple, see if women with higher testosterone do better than those with low. BUT the data comes from blood tests of world class athletes. If research is correct and 30-40% of them are doping…
5 replies 24 retweets 175 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

7- Well, your sample is corrupted. For example, a doper using steroids would likely have a LOWER testosterone level after competition because she would likely stop taking steroids leading up to competition to not test +, which would artificially cause T to drop significantly.
2 replies 21 retweets 150 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

8- Please recognize that this isn’t a for or against argument or case. It’s possible to feel empathetic towards Semenya and those with DSD while still wanting some sort of dividing line along sex.
2 replies 25 retweets 291 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

9- As you can see, it’s complicated. And the CAS case seems to acknowledge that.

There is no easy answer to this situation. It’s easy to have a negative visceral reaction from either side. But this issue is something that needs to be handled with scientific rigor and care.
2 replies 23 retweets 185 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

Finally it gets thrown out that is Semenya really that dominant? She’s only the 4th fastest in the 800

Look up and down the all time list and the vast majority near or around Semenya are suspicious times at best…

Semenya could possibly be the clean WR.
14 replies 35 retweets 326 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

A few more misconceptions going around. To clarify: “Why don’t we regulate height or other biological advantage.”

Answer: they aren’t one of the factors used to separate athletes into men’s and women’s category.

Testosterone is used as a secondary surrogate marker for sex.
13 replies 47 retweets 227 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

We WOULD regulate height or limb length or whatever IF they were differentiators of two groups.

We would use height if 99.9% of males were taller than 6ft and 99.9% of women shorter than 5’6. That’s how it is for Testosterone.
8 replies 48 retweets 207 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

IF we decide that there needs to be a men’s and women’s category, (which I think there should!) then we are left with the following options:

  1. Let the athletes decide what sex they want to compete as.
  2. Utilize some surrogate marker that distinguishes the categories

Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

Arguments can be made for either. I tend towards #2.

The problem is there’s no clear marker that separates everyone perfectly. So we are left with markers that provide the least damage. Right now that appears to be chromosomes +Testosterone.

Is that the right choice? Who knows
5 replies 26 retweets 160 likes
Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

We want fairness. We’re emotion driven creatures that are driven towards closure and solutions. This is a case that does not give that emotional contentment regardless of what side you are on.

That’s why it’s important to handle with care. Realize that there is no right choice

Steve Magness
‏Verified account @stevemagness
May 1

And finally, it’s okay to hold seemingly opposing thoughts at once. That Semenya is an amazing athlete, a role model AND that there needs to be regulation for DSD athletes. And that none of that is fair.
34 replies 74 retweets 773 likes


#7338

Geez I’ve had to edit this twice now. There’s no good joke here. Something something time travel. As you were.


#7339

Is this the AFL / ASADA Joint Investigation?

The friggin’ interim report caused us so much grief and the investigation was the subject of so many leaks to the press.

Was there ever a final report?

Or was the “interim” report just another way of describing a report that “kept the bits we needed” and left out the bits which weren’t suitable for purpose.


#7340

And those who cite Paula Radcliffe as the arbiter to note that she was basing her line on transgenders . She might have checked the facts first