Yeah interesting. I dont think it would have made much difference here - but if you look at the response to the Bourke St stabbing guy, where police dropped him in about 90 seconds using their pistols that they had on them, then you can see why being armed is useful.
Amazingly, I recall know it alls criticising police for their response to that one too!
It has worked in the past though.
In the States their was a fella, Stetson Kennedy, who went undercover in the KKK and dished the dirt on all the batshit crazy rituals and traditions they practiced. Not only was he working for the authorities but he was also using the info he gathered to help right a Superman vs the Klan radio series.
Apart from the Intel he passed onto the police, it was also pretty successful in trivialising their organisation which seriously affected their ability to recruit.
Hopefully this is the lasting positive legacy from this tragedy. As horrific as Port Arthur was for all Australians, at least we got some level of positivism out of the tragedy & we haven’t seen that type of gun violence since. I hold zero hope that the US will ever have that type of watershed moment but if NZ can thats some solace.
Victorian police managed to forestall someone getting ready to bomb the Trades Hall and a few other places. But he was a member of United Patriots, which would have been under surveillance and possibly infiltrated. He also had a paper trail.
In actual attacks there is often a fog of war. When the story first broke, there were concerns that the hospital ( next to the Linwood mosque) was under attack also, which might have led to resources being diverted there. And, at the national level, who was to know whether other mosques were being targeted?
Tarrant belonged to a gun club. Someone reported him for his strange behaviour , but not taken seriously.
BTW, use of the term “alt right” gives these groups a legitimacy. They are invariably neo nazi EXTREMISt organisations.
Alt right is basically just a new coat of paint really. A lot of these guys who are spearheading right wing organisations dress like white collar corporates, their impression is to look slick. Gavin McInnes is leading a manchild colony of macho, frat boys right wing wannabes, half of them look like hipsters who could be your local barista or modern tattoo artist. Thirty years ago they’d have shaved heads and a much more threatening and intimidating, impressionably lower class look.
Normalised and blending in.
“New Zealand Police Commissioner Mike Bush has praised police in Christchurch for their rapid response to Friday’s shooting, noting that armed units were on the scene of the attack within six minutes of receiving the first emergency call.”
If they aren’t already then his followers need to be on a watch list because removing him will agitate them to a new level.
This is crazy times.
Legally impossible unless bankrupted or prison sentence of more than 12 months.
He can be ignored when Senate sits and in whatever Committees he’s on and Senate President can do some fancy footwork to prevent him asking questions at QT, or participating in debates.
But if either of the major parties courts him for a vote, they stand condemned.
Censure motion should go ahead. He has Buckley’s of getting re-elected. Is he one of the short termers from the double dissolution?
On the response, here’s my thoughts based off what I’ve experienced and stories from call takers and dispatchers.
0 minutes - People need to get to a safe place before they can call. 3-5 min
3 minutes - The general public are by and large really bad at giving information. This is exaserbated by the obsolescence of land lines which once gave accurate locations. Now it’s a struggle to get an accurate address. Up to 2 minutes just to get enough info to dispatch police.
5 minutes - police dispatched. Police now have to respond. Fire response is 8 min. Ambulance is 15 min from memory. I’ve no idea about police, but let’s say they are nearby and the first unit is 5 min.
6 minute mark. Shooter leaves first mosque.
10 minutes. Police arrive. At best that’s a 10 min response from when the guy started shooting. By now the guy has left. Cops don’t know who they are looking for. There’s lots of dead and injured. Maybe 3 units on scene are attempting to deal with this. This would be the most chaotic and horrific job any of these cops have attended. It will take time to secure the area, attend to wounded and talk to witnesses. The first scene won’t give much useful information in a hurry, it’s too chaotic.
12-15 minutes- A search starts. It’s focused on the first site. There’s limited resources, because it NZ and why would they have an army on standby. Everything they have is heading to the first mosque.
By now the guy has left the area, he’s gone before the police set up road blocks.
15 minute mark. The second mosque gets hit. Every police unit available will swarm on this area. They will be near the first site, won’t get to the second in time.
22 minutes. The shooter leaves the second mosque.
36 minutes. The guy is arrested.
…
The cops in Christchurch would be devastated right now. They will feel that they failed. There was nothing that could be done about the first attack. It happened too fast with no warning. The only thing that could have stopped the second was luck.
Anyway @wimmera1, hope that puts it in perspective.
Thanks for that. As with the Black Saturday bushfires lessons will be learned on the handling of emergencies of this scale.
As to the ambulances, reportedly they could not get through because of the roadblocks and callers were advised to be ferried in cars or whatever else was available ( Bangladesh cricket bus was made available). There would be uninjured as well as injured desperate to get out. There might not have been any paramedics immediately available at the first site, but in any event, the scale of carnage would not fit with standard triage operations.
Adern’s staff would also be devastated for not acting on Tarrant’s email. Ministers offices get deluged with messages from fruit loops and trolls and there is no reason why they should have passed that message to Adern. And he was under the radar.
For the future, anyone belonging to a gun club or using a rifle range should be under some sort of surveillance.
Is anyone reading the reporting?
Armed police there six minutes from first call.
Email to PM’s office referred to security two minutes after arrival, so before the attack (but with no idea where said attack would be).
Having read a number of annomous Facebook and twitter accounts on Annings social media comments section, they are announcing ‘the war has started’.
Hopefully these are just posers trying to act tough online. But yeah, removing this nutcase from parliament will cause a hostile environment.
Or they could just call an election and end it now.
Not fast enough for some!
1.1 million people have signed up now. That’s a huge result. I just signed and I never do those petitions.
Yes he is facing re-election, because he took the second One Nation seat. Hanson got the full two terms being number 1.
So he has two months and only one sitting week left of his parliamentary career.
Modern democracies are reactive and those that are socially progressive do not last long for many reasons. Generally Government reflects what the majority want, so changing gun laws is often just too hard.
The gun lobby everywhere is politically very active and Shooters and Fishers Parties hold balance of power in some places.
Events like Port Arthur and now in NZ tend to solidify action and make it easier to get legislation through parliament. Howard was strong and rapid with his response and any opposition was minimised. The NZ PM has a great strength of purpose and she will make it happen. I am not sure that ScoMo or Bill could.
Agree with all of that
Carol Pomana feels slightly uncomfortable about shopping for guns just days after the Christchurch terrorist attack on two mosques that left 50 people dead and dozens more injured.
“In some ways, I feel like it’s inappropriate because of what’s happened,” she said.
However, she believes change is coming as the New Zealand Cabinet meets on Monday to discuss tighter gun regulations.
“That’s why we’re here today,” she said, after emerging from Christchurch’s Gun City store.
"If we do not purchase the guns we’d like, we’re going to miss out on that opportunity.
“It’s just being realistic.”
Even though a crackdown could affect her ability to own guns, she believes stronger laws are justified.
“It’s just too easy [to get a licence],” she said.
Ms Pomana, a target shooter, said she would like to see stronger vetting of gun owners, including psychological testing.
“It’s about the people behind the gun. A gun can’t pick itself up and shoot you. It’s about the mentality of the person,” she said.
<img src=’/uploads/default/original/3X/9/b/9bd7c43e1d5dff45b880bd54c05923b278bbb07c.jpeg’ alt=‘A long roadside billboard promoting the sale of guns, with the tagline ‘start an adventure’.|700x467’> PHOTO: Gun sales could increase as the New Zealand Government discusses tightening its gun laws. (ABC: Barbara Miller)
Ms Pomana is a member of a sporting shooters club in Christchurch.
<img src=’/uploads/default/original/3X/9/5/954fb078d4e97f0064c470ff1eb59fc05c0f8861.jpeg’ alt=’‘I saw dead people everywhere’’>
Mosque shooting survivors describe screaming and terror, ‘dead people everywhere’ as gunman opened fire.
“Guns are very safe in our hands,” she said.
“We are definitely only supporters of firearms for sport, not for anything else.”
There are an estimated 1.5 million guns in New Zealand and firearm ownership is far more common than in Australia.
Billboards near the Gun City store portray shooting as a lifestyle activity.
One poster advertising an air rifle carries the slogan “Get the family outside”.
Another says “Start an adventure”.
Jacinda Ardern’s Government will consider tighter restrictions on semi-automatic weapons, like the AR-15, which was among the arsenal allegedly used by accused gunman Brenton Tarrant.
The AR-15 can be bought using a lower-level category A licence, however it is believed the gunman modified some weapons to increase their capacity.
Gun control campaigners say military-style semi-automatics, which are available on higher-level licences in New Zealand, need to be banned urgently.
“These are the guns that kill people,” Professor Kevin Clements, from the University of Otago, said.
“[A ban] has been strongly resisted by the gun lobby,” he said.
Professor Clements believes Friday’s attack will change public perceptions about high-powered guns.
“This is a moment … John Howard was able to institute the most far-reaching gun laws in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre,” he said.
“Jacinda Ardern and her Government here — and I hope it would be a bipartisan policy — could do exactly the same.”
Nicole McKee, secretary of the Coalition of Licenced Firearm Owners, said gun owners were already subjected to a stringent vetting process.
However, she said changes to some gun laws may be appropriate.
“We have made it clear to some government agencies that we are open not to lobby them, but to have some frank discussions about what we can do to assist this country to ensure that this sort of thing cannot happen,” she said.
“What we don’t want to see is kneejerk legislative changes because they will always have unintended consequences.”
Alaa Osman, whose friends Osama Adnan and Monier Soliman were killed inside the Al Noor mosque, said gun reform was long overdue.
"If someone needs a rifle for target shooting or hunting, OK. I understand that; it’s something here in the culture and I totally respect that.
“But why semi-automatic weapons? Nobody should have a semi-automatic weapon. It’s just wrong.”
Or it could be his time spent in Eastern Europe, with his weapon covered with racist epitahs from that region?
This wasnt the work of a run of the mill racist.
