The Fast Train Thread


Australia could soon get its own ‘dormitory towns’ thanks to fast rail

July 14, 20168:13pm

AUSTRALIA may soon get its own “dormitory towns” with the unveiling of an ambitious $200 billion plan for a high speed rail network between Melbourne and Sydney.

The private company Consolidated Land and Rail Australia (CLARA) Pty Ltd says it can deliver the rail project by building eight new cities and using value capture to pay for it.

The rail line won’t cost taxpayers anything and the project will also deliver cities where homes are affordable and where people can still travel to a capital city in less time than a morning commute.

In a promotional video released today, the new cities are being pitched as places where “data is open, energy is renewable, water is valued, homes are affordable and people can live within 10 minutes of all they need”.

Even more alluring is the promise for “cities built to unlock all human potential”, where people can travel to a capital city in less time than a morning commute.

It almost sounds too good to be true and as Dr Michael de Percy of the University of Canberra has noted, “the devil is in the detail”.
Image from CLARA’s proposal for high speed rail and eight new cities.

Image from CLARA’s proposal for high speed rail and eight new cities.Source:YouTube

While details are still scarce, Dr de Percy has welcomed the new plan, describing it as a very modern approach towards delivering infrastructure.

“I believe it could be a way to take advantage of (Australia’s) natural advantages such as using our space to relieve population growth and things like gridlock,” he said.

The project uses value capture to help fund the new fast rail network, which can involve taxes or levies being placed on land or houses that benefit from the project. Dr de Percy said this means those who actually benefit from an increase in land values that building public transport generally delivers, actually pay for it.

In this case, CLARA has already secured land deals for regional hubs that will be set up close to existing towns. If all goes to plan, construction could start within five years.

Because the plan involves building new cities rather than using existing cities as hubs, Dr de Percy said this would overcome one of the major roadblocks to delivering new infrastructure.

“When it comes to infrastructure there are always winners and losers,” he said.

Often those who lose out are existing businesses or homes impacted by the rail link either during construction or once it’s finished.

Compensating these people can be extremely complicated but building a new city means there won’t be as many people negatively impacted by the development.

It also makes the project’s potential clear from the start.

“Right from the beginning the value capture is clear to investors, rather than the project interfering with existing conditions and having to compensate people if they lose out.”

That does not mean there aren’t other problems the developers would have to wrestle with.
Great for commuters, but the hubs have also been criticised as soulless.

Great for commuters, but the hubs have also been criticised as soulless.Source:YouTube

The plan may leave residents in existing towns upset at missing out.

“They may wonder ‘why aren’t we getting it?’, ‘why is it going to nobody?’.”

Making the cities attractive to residents would be another hurdle.

“Certainly you would have to make it attractive to people to want to live there in the first place,” Dr de Percy said.

“People want to own their own home but it’s increasingly difficult to do so in cities so one would hope a new regional centre would allow traditional modes of living that just don’t exist, and you would hope it would be more affordable too.”

Commuter towns, also called “dormitory villages”, “bedroom communities” or “bed towns” already exist in the US, UK and Japan.

But one risk is they become soulless suburban hubs that can seem empty.

Basildon, located just half an hour from London, was originally envisioned as a futuristic city. But its concrete buildings have since become dated, leaving some to comment on its lack of character.

“Some of the best intentions in planning have proven to be plain wrong,” Dr de Percy said.

“Most people know of places that are not functioning well because of poor planning,” he said.

One of the more infamous examples in Australia was the Waterloo housing estate in Sydney that became known as the “suicide towers”.

“I think the planning would be very important in terms of enabling growth without just repeating urban sprawl we’ve experienced,” Dr de Percy said of the new project.

“Starting from scratch gives you the best opportunity of getting it right.”

Dr de Percy said delivering a fast rail line and eight new cities would require many different experts.

“We need strong leadership to make such a plan work, and commitment of course.”

Well, is this finally it? The value capture part is pretty interesting. Potentially revolutionary. So long as it’s done right going all out with sustainability principles and sensible design it could be the biggest and best thing to happen to the south east of the continent.

Did the Great Dividing Range stop being a thing?

Not many details on things like engineering solutions to physical obstacles yet. On the crude map I’ve seen it looks like it heads towards Shepparton and misses both Albury and Wagga, hitting the northern edge of the ACT, through Wollongong and up to Sydney. Would require a couple of big tunnelling projects near the ACT and Wollongong. But, they’re talking $200b so…

They’ve apparently got the land for the 8 new cities which puts to rest a lot of questions folks have apparently had about land acquisition going on recently. I have no idea about whether they have the corridors sewn up yet but perhaps that’s why they’re asking for a lot of government cooperation outside of cash.

Don’t they usually dig up this old chestnut before the election?

Here’s some vague maths. Assume you want $20B from each of the eight new towns, with the remainder somehow squeezed from the two (?) capitals (but no gov funding).

Assume $100,000 per dwelling. Therefore you need 200,000 dwellings, or around 500,000 people each.

That’s a Gold Coast/Tweed Heads “town”, and more people overall than those who currently live in Sydney.

Good luck with that.

The figure is higher than some other estimates I’ve seen; not sure if it includes building the infrastructure for the new cities or not. If not, ouch.

It’s 100% private. No public money involved. Probably the only way to get this sort of thing done. Especially after the NBN…

Here's some vague maths. Assume you want $20B from each of the eight new towns, with the remainder somehow squeezed from the two (?) capitals (but no gov funding).

Assume $100,000 per dwelling. Therefore you need 200,000 dwellings, or around 500,000 people each.

That’s a Gold Coast/Tweed Heads “town”, and more people overall than those who currently live in Sydney.

Good luck with that.

The figure is higher than some other estimates I’ve seen; not sure if it includes building the infrastructure for the new cities or not. If not, ouch.

Well done with the figures there DJR. I’m guessing the next wave of news around this will be along the same lines.

So, that’s 4 million people, assuming the entire thing is funded by value capture from land. That’s certifiable. Crazy town. Where would the water come from to start with? Will be interesting to hear more details.

I think we’re missing the most important question here.

Does this mean that we have to relocate from the True Value Solar Center, to one of these eight new cities?

Get ready for the next AFL franchise: The Stop Three Passengers! Passenger by name, passenger by reputation.

Now these “dormitory” towns, with a hundred thousand or so potential commuters each: how many can actually fit on said trains during the peaks?

As a guide, an X’Trapolis train carries 1100 people and costs $35M. Footscray and its multiple lines pushes through, IIRC, around 40,000 in the peak hour (note that is a lot more than the West Gate Bridge).

(Numbers from memory; not at work :slight_smile: )

I won’t make money. If the Japanese Shinkansen can’t, the Acela can’t, the channel tunnel can’t so this won’t either.

I wish it would but it won’t. I’d like them to build it though.

New South Victoria

(Not much) more info at http://www.clara.com.au/

Talking about cities as small as 5000 acres (I know. That’s 20 sq km in modern terms, or one Melway page).

What sort of train will it be?
The magliv train line being built in the US is costed at $100mil per KM.
Elron Musks behind one they are building in Sweden that is costed at $30mil per KM and they think that’s a little on the low side.

If you build it. They will come.

As we’re billed it. We’ll be glum.

What sort of train will it be? The magliv train line being built in the US is costed at $100mil per KM. Elron Musks behind one they are building in Sweden that is costed at $30mil per KM and they think that's a little on the low side.

Just build two cannons for $100bn each

I won't make money. If the Japanese Shinkansen can't, the Acela can't, the channel tunnel can't so this won't either.

I wish it would but it won’t. I’d like them to build it though.


Is this true? Tickets are so expensive and it’s so heavily used (companies pay for their employees transportation expenses) I’ve never heard anything about it being unprofitable.