I mentioned in my last training report that one of the recruiters said that he was very pleased with the "shape" of the list now that the list has been finalized.
I took this to mean the demographics of the list and the balance between talls and medium and small players.
He further went on to emphasize that if Watson, Chapman, Goddard and Cooney could recapture some of their form of a few years ago we would be very hard to beat.
Do you agree?
Yes
If we were good enough to only use Watson in the midfield, I'd agree.
Still a lot riding on Heppell, Zaka, Hocking.
We need a significant step up from maybe five out of ten players for Goddard, Cooney and Chapman to be the match-up headaches they can and should be.
Well, in part, but 'the shape of the list is good' and 'we'll be very hard to beat if Watson, Goddard, Chapman and Cooney play like they did a few years back' are kinda contradictory statements in my book.
The four named players are an incredible concentration of talent. Two Brownlow medalists, a Norm Smith medalist, and a guy who should have been a Norm Smith medalist. Jobe is showing no signs at all of dropping off in form as he gets older, and while Goddard isn't the player he was at his peak in 2010 he's still performing at a very high level. But they're all 28 or older, Cooney and Chapman are past their prime (this is not an insult - their standard at their primes were so incredibly high they'd be hard to sustain even without Cooney's injury issues etc) and they're not going to get any better.
On the other side of the ledger, our issues with tall depth are well known and obvious - potentially having Shaun McKernan as the only >190cm player on our list outside the fully-fit best 22 is a big worry - and we've got a generation of young blokes (NOB, Browne, Kav, Hams, Edwards, Aylett, Dalgliesh etc) who've had very limited exposure to senior footy through a combination of injuries, form not warranting a game, and being crowded out by mature-age recruits. The top end of our next generation (Daniher, Heppell, Zerrett, Carlisle) is as good as any side has, but the depth remains something of an open question.
My evaluation is that at the end of 2013 when the club accepted sanctions from the AFL, the list was building to a very strong position to mount a premiership attempt in a short window around approx 2015, while players like Goddard and Watson were still at the top of their games, and before the expansion sides talent came of age and crushed the competition under their AFL-subsidised boots. The penalties (obviously) were a major setback to that, both in preventing us from getting finals experience into our younger players that year, and in being a factor (though not the only one) in losing structurally important players in Ryder and Crameri for well below market value, as well as the obvious loss of draft picks and reduced access to young talent. This forced the list management team to make a hard choice - to focus on the short-term and top up in an attempt to make a flag bid before generational change and retirements hit our midfield, or to (quietly) give up on that and focus on rebuilding for the post-Watson era. There are pluses and minuses to both approaches - the former looks a lot like betting the farm on a pair of sixes, while the latter reminds me more of folding on two pair with kings high because surely someone at the table has got a better hand than that.
With the recruitment of Chapman, and very much more this year with the recruitment of Cooney and Gwilt, the club took option A. Again, this is not a criticism, the strategic options of the list management team were very limited, and the long-term pain was somewhat lessened by hitting the Zerrett pick out of the park - so kudos to the recruitment team on that front. I could have wished for an extra young tall in place of Gwilt, but you can't win them all and I think we committed to Gwilt before we knew Cooney would be available, so we had one less open list spot than we'd originally planned for.
So what does all this crap sum up as? Well, I reckon we're moderately well placed to pursue our obvious strategy of riding our luck on the pair of sixes. If everything goes right - good form from the older midfielders, Cooney regains if not his Brownlow form then at least something reminiscent of it, and our talls have a relatively injury-free year with natural improvement on the part of Daniher etc, then we'll be very hard to beat. Things could have gone better - even the influx of seasoned old heads hasn't stopped the 'hey, let's play like fishshit and lose embarrassingly to Melbourne this week!' brainfarts, and we really needed to win the North final last year to get more substantial finals experience into the young guys, for a start. But nothing fatal has happened yet.
Still, we're riding our luck on that pair of sixes. And given that strategy, our list is very well fit for purpose. I have longer-term worries about structure in several places, but the club has made a conscious decision not to worry about that too much. 'What shape the list is in' is a pretty broad issue, and it's not something you can just sum up as 'good' or 'bad'. The club's strategy is to throw everything at the 2015 and maybe 2016 flag bids, and just madly cross their fingers and hope nothing irreparable goes wrong injury-wise. And they've build a list that is very well shaped to carry out that strategy.
Well, in part, but 'the shape of the list is good' and 'we'll be very hard to beat if Watson, Goddard, Chapman and Cooney play like they did a few years back' are kinda contradictory statements in my book.
The four named players are an incredible concentration of talent. Two Brownlow medalists, a Norm Smith medalist, and a guy who should have been a Norm Smith medalist. Jobe is showing no signs at all of dropping off in form as he gets older, and while Goddard isn't the player he was at his peak in 2010 he's still performing at a very high level. But they're all 28 or older, Cooney and Chapman are past their prime (this is not an insult - their standard at their primes were so incredibly high they'd be hard to sustain even without Cooney's injury issues etc) and they're not going to get any better.
On the other side of the ledger, our issues with tall depth are well known and obvious - potentially having Shaun McKernan as the only >190cm player on our list outside the fully-fit best 22 is a big worry - and we've got a generation of young blokes (NOB, Browne, Kav, Hams, Edwards, Aylett, Dalgliesh etc) who've had very limited exposure to senior footy through a combination of injuries, form not warranting a game, and being crowded out by mature-age recruits. The top end of our next generation (Daniher, Heppell, Zerrett, Carlisle) is as good as any side has, but the depth remains something of an open question.
My evaluation is that at the end of 2013 when the club accepted sanctions from the AFL, the list was building to a very strong position to mount a premiership attempt in a short window around approx 2015, while players like Goddard and Watson were still at the top of their games, and before the expansion sides talent came of age and crushed the competition under their AFL-subsidised boots. The penalties (obviously) were a major setback to that, both in preventing us from getting finals experience into our younger players that year, and in being a factor (though not the only one) in losing structurally important players in Ryder and Crameri for well below market value, as well as the obvious loss of draft picks and reduced access to young talent. This forced the list management team to make a hard choice - to focus on the short-term and top up in an attempt to make a flag bid before generational change and retirements hit our midfield, or to (quietly) give up on that and focus on rebuilding for the post-Watson era. There are pluses and minuses to both approaches - the former looks a lot like betting the farm on a pair of sixes, while the latter reminds me more of folding on two pair with kings high because surely someone at the table has got a better hand than that.
With the recruitment of Chapman, and very much more this year with the recruitment of Cooney and Gwilt, the club took option A. Again, this is not a criticism, the strategic options of the list management team were very limited, and the long-term pain was somewhat lessened by hitting the Zerrett pick out of the park - so kudos to the recruitment team on that front. I could have wished for an extra young tall in place of Gwilt, but you can't win them all and I think we committed to Gwilt before we knew Cooney would be available, so we had one less open list spot than we'd originally planned for.
So what does all this crap sum up as? Well, I reckon we're moderately well placed to pursue our obvious strategy of riding our luck on the pair of sixes. If everything goes right - good form from the older midfielders, Cooney regains if not his Brownlow form then at least something reminiscent of it, and our talls have a relatively injury-free year with natural improvement on the part of Daniher etc, then we'll be very hard to beat. Things could have gone better - even the influx of seasoned old heads hasn't stopped the 'hey, let's play like fishshit and lose embarrassingly to Melbourne this week!' brainfarts, and we really needed to win the North final last year to get more substantial finals experience into the young guys, for a start. But nothing fatal has happened yet.
Still, we're riding our luck on that pair of sixes. And given that strategy, our list is very well fit for purpose. I have longer-term worries about structure in several places, but the club has made a conscious decision not to worry about that too much. 'What shape the list is in' is a pretty broad issue, and it's not something you can just sum up as 'good' or 'bad'. The club's strategy is to throw everything at the 2015 and maybe 2016 flag bids, and just madly cross their fingers and hope nothing irreparable goes wrong injury-wise. And they've build a list that is very well shaped to carry out that strategy.
pretty much sums it up really.
The only thing i'd add is Watson doesn't need to recapture form from a few years ago persay, moreso needs to play a full season without missing large chunks of games due to injury.
But yes on paper at least the strategy is sound. Whether in practice however it'll all come together and work, well that's something that can only be answered come end of october ish next year.
I concur
Injury free is the key.
I think the list is good. There is always exaggeration in both ways about guys outside the 22 - look at a few guys Geelong has delisted and picked up recently, certainly nothing like they were talked about a few seasons past.
The quality of you best 22 is more important than anything else, and the quality of your midfield group best of that.
Great post by HM, agree with all of that.
Main worry with our list is the lack of KPP in terms of depth. But I guess with Hurls, Carlisle and Gwilt flexible and versatile to play at either end, it won’t matter too much (I hope!)
I really rate our list this year and I think that the additions of Cooney and Giles will prove to be genius.
I think we’ll give things a real shake this year and will hopefully play a full season of what we produced at the start of 2013 under Hird now that we have him back.
We have a strong enough squad to push for top 4. The only problem is older players tend to get injured.
i think the difference this year will be the final 4 spots in our best 22 and our depth.
Id love to see laverde and mckenna come in round 1, but given the experience and mature bodies on the list....they will have to wait for an opportunity and to star in the reserves.
With Melksham, Jerrett, Gleeson, Kommer, BRowne, kav, all fighting for a Round 1 spot.
WE have midfield depth.
Key position/ruck depth we lack, and if we get an injury...may be out or Pears/langford/McKernan or Steinberg.
Well, in part, but 'the shape of the list is good' and 'we'll be very hard to beat if Watson, Goddard, Chapman and Cooney play like they did a few years back' are kinda contradictory statements in my book.
The four named players are an incredible concentration of talent. Two Brownlow medalists, a Norm Smith medalist, and a guy who should have been a Norm Smith medalist. Jobe is showing no signs at all of dropping off in form as he gets older, and while Goddard isn't the player he was at his peak in 2010 he's still performing at a very high level. But they're all 28 or older, Cooney and Chapman are past their prime (this is not an insult - their standard at their primes were so incredibly high they'd be hard to sustain even without Cooney's injury issues etc) and they're not going to get any better.
On the other side of the ledger, our issues with tall depth are well known and obvious - potentially having Shaun McKernan as the only >190cm player on our list outside the fully-fit best 22 is a big worry - and we've got a generation of young blokes (NOB, Browne, Kav, Hams, Edwards, Aylett, Dalgliesh etc) who've had very limited exposure to senior footy through a combination of injuries, form not warranting a game, and being crowded out by mature-age recruits. The top end of our next generation (Daniher, Heppell, Zerrett, Carlisle) is as good as any side has, but the depth remains something of an open question.
My evaluation is that at the end of 2013 when the club accepted sanctions from the AFL, the list was building to a very strong position to mount a premiership attempt in a short window around approx 2015, while players like Goddard and Watson were still at the top of their games, and before the expansion sides talent came of age and crushed the competition under their AFL-subsidised boots. The penalties (obviously) were a major setback to that, both in preventing us from getting finals experience into our younger players that year, and in being a factor (though not the only one) in losing structurally important players in Ryder and Crameri for well below market value, as well as the obvious loss of draft picks and reduced access to young talent. This forced the list management team to make a hard choice - to focus on the short-term and top up in an attempt to make a flag bid before generational change and retirements hit our midfield, or to (quietly) give up on that and focus on rebuilding for the post-Watson era. There are pluses and minuses to both approaches - the former looks a lot like betting the farm on a pair of sixes, while the latter reminds me more of folding on two pair with kings high because surely someone at the table has got a better hand than that.
With the recruitment of Chapman, and very much more this year with the recruitment of Cooney and Gwilt, the club took option A. Again, this is not a criticism, the strategic options of the list management team were very limited, and the long-term pain was somewhat lessened by hitting the Zerrett pick out of the park - so kudos to the recruitment team on that front. I could have wished for an extra young tall in place of Gwilt, but you can't win them all and I think we committed to Gwilt before we knew Cooney would be available, so we had one less open list spot than we'd originally planned for.
So what does all this crap sum up as? Well, I reckon we're moderately well placed to pursue our obvious strategy of riding our luck on the pair of sixes. If everything goes right - good form from the older midfielders, Cooney regains if not his Brownlow form then at least something reminiscent of it, and our talls have a relatively injury-free year with natural improvement on the part of Daniher etc, then we'll be very hard to beat. Things could have gone better - even the influx of seasoned old heads hasn't stopped the 'hey, let's play like fishshit and lose embarrassingly to Melbourne this week!' brainfarts, and we really needed to win the North final last year to get more substantial finals experience into the young guys, for a start. But nothing fatal has happened yet.
Still, we're riding our luck on that pair of sixes. And given that strategy, our list is very well fit for purpose. I have longer-term worries about structure in several places, but the club has made a conscious decision not to worry about that too much. 'What shape the list is in' is a pretty broad issue, and it's not something you can just sum up as 'good' or 'bad'. The club's strategy is to throw everything at the 2015 and maybe 2016 flag bids, and just madly cross their fingers and hope nothing irreparable goes wrong injury-wise. And they've build a list that is very well shaped to carry out that strategy.
i think they went all in when they targeted BJ as a FA.
I reckon the draft sanctions have probably cost us at least 1 (Apeness) and possibly 2 KP prospects. Gwilt has been brought in purely for that reason.
Our backline should still be rock solid. Our midfield will improve naturally through Hepp, Zaka, colyer and zerret and cooney will ad something.
JD and Carlisle will both be better for last year.
Can we find consistency in games and across the season? It will be harder to play catch up football without ryder going bananas with his tap work out of the center.
can we create space in our forward line and kick to leading targets?
What will tbell bring to the table as the undisputed no.1 ruck?
those are the big issues for me.
and lol at fish ****
Go hard for top 4 this season and next. If it doesn't eventuate them we'll need to start a rebuild in earnest.
Now or not for a while.
Big questions IF chapman, Goddard, Watson, Stanton, fletcher, cooney can play at a good enough level to push for a premiership.
All of them at some point in time last season looked like old men playing a young mans game.
If we are going to push for a gf we need zaharakis, heppell, Carlisle, daniher, Hurley, zerrett, melksham and Myers to all lift their games so the focus isn’t on the older farts.
Post watson/ Goddard we should have a good enough midfield to keep us thereabouts IMO. Notwithstanding lack if kpp depth.
Rebuilds are nonsense. Get better every year. Aint no one rebuilding for success, especially now free agency is in.
Zaka and Myers need to take the next step and become consistent A grade mids just like Jobe and Stants have been for years.
Rebuilds are nonsense. Get better every year. Aint no one rebuilding for success, especially now free agency is in.
Just don't do it the Michael Voss way...
Zaka and Myers need to take the next step and become consistent A grade mids just like Jobe and Stants have been for years.
Thanks Humble for a well written summation.
One thing I would like to elaborate on is the question of depth. Sure we have a great midfield. As long as the older players are managed and have the opportunity to use the incredible skills they have we could see some great footy from them.
But its the last few places just outside the best 22 where we have been exposed for depth to our great detriment. Against North, we were forced to pick Stein, a VFL player and put him on Brown. Thats because Jake and Fletch were out. I have no doubt Fletch would have matched up better on Brown and probably saved 2 of his goals.
I believe we have more depth now as well as an extra elite midfielder. Dont forget, Tayte Pears may even get fit ! (All he has to do is remember how to play football like he did around 2010). So we have more depth. I also believe the VFL side will do a lot better this year.