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Football Discussion Trade week Duursma head in
1530

But we are talking about SSP - we can sign Baker or Waterman anytime in that period if we want.

As for the mid season draft, it depends on where we finish. So, I’m not sure what your point is? The way I see it, we invited those two guys because they won’t cost us any picks. So, why should we invite kids if they are not talented enough to be drafted? It makes sense to invite mature age guys for SSP, not kids who can’t offer us anything straightaway, AND give us nothing return for developing them.

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1531

Our depth can’t get a game or was let go. There’s no harm in bringing in role players to cover injuries. Hell, with our bunch of marshmallows anyone with a bit of mongrel might keep a spot if they come in.

1532

Everyone who will be available in the mid-season draft is available now as a SSP. So I’m saying we should be trying to identify the kids who will go high in the mid-season draft. Picks between the two are effectively equivalent and interchangeable.

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1533

On the depth, I don’t believe you should recruit for depth at this point in a rebuild. By its nature, depth is better than the kids. So it forces you into the position of choosing between best available (and likely best at training) versus development of players who can be a lot more. Which can cause problems in the squad, such as resentment when someone doing better is over-looked for a rawer but more talented kid. Better to have the kids fighting for the spots.

I’ve no problem with Waterman or Baker if the club thinks they can become quality AFL players. But if they’re only depth, choose a kid who is likely worse but has more upside.

Depth is what you start adding when you’re closer to challenging, and it assumes some of those rawer, more talented kids don’t just develop into depth anyway.

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1534

This is potentially not the case this year though. With limited exposed form there were far less players drafted than in many previous years. It is expected that there are still plenty of players who are talented enough to become AFL players, it’s just that lack of exposure meant they were unable to be identified. It is also expected that some of those who were not identified might have been too level draft picks if they’d played their U18 year (in the way Clayton Oliver went from nowhere to top5 in his U18 year), due to changes in their body, their mental application, being given more opportunities or playing in different roles. It’s also the reason why our high draft selections this year were less valuable than in a normal year.

@Ants argument is that by getting “left over” players down to train with us over summer we might get a headstart on understanding whether they are the ones that would have made the jump, and so would be able to take one or 2 in the SSP who would otherwise have been high msd picks.

While it makes sense, I think that there are risks in this approach and it wouldn’t necessarily give you the answers you expect.

What you’d be looking for is :

1 Attitude, and changes in attitude. - I’d actually expect this could be determined by interviews which would be the first screening process prior to getting anyone to training, and was probably already assessed in depth in November.

2 Changes to body composition - we’d probably already know that from all the draft scouting

3 Opportunities and Roles - to be honest I don’t know how we can judge that from pre season training. They need to get into matches to get opportunities to demonstrate their abilities in new roles and with greater responsibilities.

Having these guys down to training will obviously tell you a little more, but would not significantly add to what we knew in November (or December or whenever the draft was). I’m not sure it would allow us to get particularly ahead of the msd, any more than taking additional ND or RD picks would have. We’d be using all the information we had and then adding “how they fit in with the group” based on a dozen training sessions.

Conversely the mature guys we had a far greater understanding of their footballing ability based on multiple years of performance, but it is unlikely we put as much time into them prior to the ND. Getting them down now gives us information on them that we probably didn’t get earlier (be it physical or mental testing, interviewing, whatever) due to them not being at draft camps and due to travel restrictions over the year.

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1535

I don’t think we’d be recruiting Waterman or Baker as “depth”. Waterman in particular is an interesting problem. He’s 24, he went through the system but due to illness never had an opportunity to find out whether he was any good.

He’s obviously very good at state level, but we still don’t know where his ceiling could be (and it sounds like there’s still unknowns about his illness recovery as well). We’d be buying as a “we think this year was just the beginning of what he can be when he recovers fully”, so much more of a development from a solid base.

Baker you’d think is more the “finished product”, except that he’s been in a lower standard league, and has the upside once he gets into a higher performing environment.

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1536

I’m not saying we would be, or they would be, those posts were in a response to a poster who said they’d be good depth. And I replied we shouldn’t be recruiting just for depth.

Liam Ryan is a good example of someone who developed later, did well in the WAFL, and exploded in the AFL. Kelly, Hibberd the same. More than happy to get them. But if we think they’ll be Snelling level, I don’t think now is the time even if it fills a hole in the side.

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1537

Yeah, I understood that, was just adding my perspective on the 2 individuals.

If we got them I’d be hoping for Isaac Smith and Liam Ryan :slight_smile:

(Re Snelling, I don’t think we can complain about that level. With the 3 spots we had available if we got 1x very good, 1 X Snelling level and 1 X bust we’d have probably done OK. But to get that you’re aiming for 3 X superstar!)

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1538

I’ve always held the idea that your final spot or 2 on your list should be held for Moon shot players.

Don’t get me wrong, we have done well with Snelling. He’s AFL quality. But I feel like he’s fringe 22 when everyone is fit. Like Frosty just said, I’d like it to be us trying for a Liam Ryan or Issac Smith. Those guys came in with one or 2 elite AFL skills that they only needed the rest of there game around those skills to be enhanced a little, both became top quality players in very good sides.

These two guys we are trialing seem more of the Snelling type. Good all round. But ceiling isn’t overly high. With that being said we are not a very good side, so we probably could use some solid foot soldiers

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1539

Liam Ryan and Isaac Smith were picked in top 25 of the draft IIRC

Not to be compared with SSP players coming in after ND/rookie drafts

If you get any kind of a player it’s well done, Snelling maybe the best performed of any clubs MSD picks that year. . Hard working role players/competent depth is a win.

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1540

I’m talking about picking guys out of lower leagues that are senior ready. I’m pretty sure Frosty is as well.

1541

I wonder if there’s any moon shot players we are looking at, but are trying to keep it quiet.

1542

Quite possibly. Last year we trialled like 4 guys and ended up signing the one guy we didn’t see on the track

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1543

I think the key is, as @frosty mentioned, that there’s no more information available about potential kids now, than there was at draft time.
So holding off until we get a sense of their actions in real games makes sense.
Re the two older possibilities, I’d be really surprised if we took both.
And in a way they’re both long shots, though maybe not at Ryan or Kelly levels.
One could be a Hibberd, Baguely level which ain’t bad, while Waterman could surprise in an area we’re really short on sans Fanta & Mozzie.
Either way, there’s less effort in bringing them both up to speed in training sims.
Then making a call.
With an 18 year old, no football for 12 months, you’d still be guessing until the season started.

1544

Yeah.

The only additional info we didn’t have at the draft is training performance. If there’s a moon shot player we are keeping quiet, then we could have just taken him on the night of the draft.

My theory is this is just a conspiracy to inflate traffic to Blitz.

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1545

More likely to be Hibberd level than Hibberd level though.

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1546

Waterman just seems too much like what we have in medium forwards
Stringer
Laverde
Perkins

but i guess we have lost Towner and Begley

Waterman was good enough to be drafted originally has a AFL body now, and part of reason he didnt succeed was he had a illness, probably didnt work hard enough, but knows whats required now.

I’d just be a bit annoyed if hes taking games of Perkins development. But if Waterman turns into a 100 game player then it was worth it.

Asked swans mate about Baker and he said swans didnt rate him.
But hes similar to waterman and worked hard to give himself an opportunity to get back on a AFL list.

Id love to get a livewire small forward - Sheedy rookie pick like NLM, Lovett, Davey, Dean Rioli etc

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1547

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1548

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Interestingly his draft info had him as an midfielder & can clearly find the footy

As a mid/fwd with very good goal sense could very much be something to work with

Pick 76: Alec Waterman

With its final selection, West Coast has taken father-son recruit Alec Waterman

PLAYER BIO

Age: 18
Height: 183cm
Weight: 89kg
Pos: Midfielder
From: Claremont

Inside word:

West Coast recruited Alec Waterman in October’s father-son selection meeting with its final pick in the 2014 national draft.

A hard-working on-baller who accumulates possessions, Waterman played five games for Western Australia at the mid-year NAB AFL Under-18 Championships.

Listed at 182cm and 88kg, he produced a standout performance in the second round of the championships when he gathered 35 touches against Vic Metro.

His father, Chris Waterman, enjoyed a terrific career for the Eagles, including the club’s 1992 and 1994 flags.

Chris, who played 177 matches between 1988-98, believes his son has earned his selection through hard work.

“It’s good for him because he’s worked hard for it,” Chris Waterman said.

“Growing up with that shadow hanging over him, he’s had to put up with a lot of sniggering behind his back and comments like ‘he only gets this because of his name or his old man’. So the fact he’s been chosen on his merits is terrific for him.”

Rohan O’Brien says:

“Alec has been a bit of a bonus. We thought during the year that the price we would have to pay for Alec may be a little bit more than what it was, albeit understanding it’s hard for clubs to commit in the middle rounds of the draft so to get him where we did was terrific. We think he’s played well on a wing, he’s been very good through the midfield and being a young club, to get father-sons is terrific for the tradition and future.”

1549

Even for you, this is a strange post.

In what way were either Smith or Ryan moonshots? They were first and second round picks, respectively, based on stellar season/s at state level (multiple for Ryan) and then testing. In no way, shape or form could they have been considered the “last spot on the list”. They were highly sought after, and about as known quantities as you can get, outside the AFL.

Our last spot on the list last season was Henry Crawford - a super duper tall guy, late convert to the sport, latecomer to elite pathways, on nobody’s radar, and seemingly picked for doing a couple of freaky deaky things in SANFL reserves. The prototypical risk/reward pick!!!

Snelling was our last spot in 2019. Was he a safe pick, yes. Was he a good pick, also yes. No complaints here. To my mind, only looking for upside picks with the last spot is an artificial constraint, not going to help you.

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