West Taiwan (aka CHINA)

I for one, welcome our new Chinese overlord.

He’s Xi best.

Look on the bright side.

A better miltary.
Chinese food.
Closer relationship with Taiwan.
Excess housing.
Szechuan beef.
Access to all of the South China Sea.
Dumplings.
Multi lingual.
No longer required to ship iron ore.
Huge manufacturing base.
Special fried rice.
Large workforce.
No more elections.
Peking Duck.
No more Australian politicians.
Chicken and sweetcorn soup.
No more students overstaying their visas.
Did I mention the Chinese food.

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Hmmm Peking Duck. Last time l had it was nearly 10 years ago in Tiananmen Square.

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Hot ■■■■■■■ garbage.

Even the vast majority of (the shrinking number of) deep blue Taiwanese don’t want to be controlled by China - they want sovereignty.

To suggest vague ideas of identity legitimises China’s approach to Taiwan would legitimise the same approach with many of their neighbours, esp. those strongly influenced by Confucianism - Vietnam, Korea.

Or England invading Australia cos “identity”.

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Taiwan is not an independent nation and is not currently officially pursuing independence. Taiwan is not a member of the UN. Most foreign governments don’t recognise Taiwan as independent. The USA’s official policy on Taiwan acknowledges Taiwan’s ambiguous status. The policy of both major parties in Taiwan is to maintain the status quo rather than pursue independence. (My guess is they are pursuing independence unofficially, or waiting until it’s feasible).

I lived in Taiwan in 2022. Have posted here many times that it should be independent, the majority of Taiwanese want independence, and that China has lost the hearts and minds of the Taiwanese people - for many reasons but one being firing missiles over the top just because Nancy came to visit - and I believe independence or some working arrangement that means the same thing is inevitable.

Culturally, most Taiwanese are han chinese, but in not many years from now almost zero Taiwanese people will have lived in China or will identify with the mainland.

Taiwan’s current national status and identity as a separate state is ambiguous.

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Strategic ambiguity because there’s a bully next door.

Taiwanese people - who are half my family - have no ambiguity at all about their independence, and the fact they’re not in the UN (or WHO during covid early days when they were the best in the world at responding) is evidence of stupidity and injustice in the world, not evidence that they’re not operating as an independent nation, rightfully.

The official line of the Taiwanese government (again, under duress of a bully) is that they don’t need to declare independence because they are already independent.

The greyness - and the exclusion from diplomatic norms - is a result of China’s aggression and they want you to believe something about it is justified/natural. They want you to factor that in when thinking about the rightness/wrongness of China’s claim… But it is simpler than that: the claim is wrong; the greyness and exclusions in service of the claim are wrong; let Taiwan live as it wants, in peace, like any other country, and treat them like any other country.

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I have seen reports of moves to take down statues of Chiang Kai- Shek ( ?sp), further distancing from the narrative that Taiwan represents China.
As to Taiwan’s relationship with the UN, China continues to exercise its UNSC veto power to deny observer status. In comparison, Palestine has observer status.
At the same time, Taiwan has been a signatory to some treaties as Chinese Taipei.
Taiwan is a full member of the WTO ( which is not part of the UN institution ) because it has autonomy in economic and trade relations. However it is taboo to call it Taiwan. Always Chinese Taipei.

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image

This statue in the Chiang Kai- Shek Memorial Hall is enormous. I imagined the statue being one of Tony Abbot which I think suggests some cultural differences. The same report wanted his face removed from coins. Seems a good idea given the atrocities committed during his reign.

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Maybe as the 2.3% of the population of Taiwan are Austronesian Taiwanese indigenous people, that we should ask Taiwan to become part of our great Nation as our sixth state.

Then AFL can become truly international with the Taipei Lizards

Then instead of any wars, we can have a team from China as well, Beijing Pandas and have massive rivalry rounds.

There is already an AFL side (mostly of expats) that play other teams in the region in friendly games, they are The China Blooos.

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Fark C Bloos ?

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Lol. Brilliant. May I add:

Full Employment
Hongshao (Red Braised) Pork Belly
New New Mining boom
Gong Bao Ji Ding (Kung Pao Chicken)
Massive Re-industrialization
麻婆豆腐 Mapo Tofu
Nationalized school curriculum
Wanton soup
Streamlined Industrial relations
Sweet and Sour Pork
New New Australia Card
火锅 Hot Pot
Long overdue Land reform
Did I mention the food?

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siney had us all onboard by the special fried rice line

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another debate for another time - I’d suggest after Ukraine have liberated their entire nation →

whether or not trump wins, the US seems to be a powder keg of political dysfunction, and on a knife edge where a bunch of RWNJs could have way too much influence over the world’s most powerful military.

globally are we better off with one superpower with an influential but hopefully minority group of nutters in positions of power, or are we better off with a 2nd superpower eg china?

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Ah, the old lose/lose option eh :wink:

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An important Q. How would a future with the CCP-ruled-China as global hegemon look? This article gives some insights. (TL;DR: It won’t be liberal)

What Kind of Superpower Will China Be? - The Atlantic (archive.md)
image

The Future of Chinese Power

The policies and practices of the country’s dynasties offer insights into how modern Chinese leaders may wield their strength.

MICHAEL SCHUMAN

6:00 AM ET

Chinese soldier in Tiananmen Square

KEVIN FRAYER / GETTY

What kind of superpower will China be? That’s the question of the 21st century. According to American leaders such as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, China will be a rapacious authoritarian nightmare, intent on destroying democracy itself. Beijing, needless to say, doesn’t quite agree.

Fortunately for those of us seeking answers to this question, China was a major power for long stretches of history, and the foreign policies and practices of its great dynasties can offer us insights into how modern Chinese leaders may wield their widening power now and in the future.

Of course, Chinese society today is not the same as it was 100 years ago—let alone 1,000 years. But I’ve long been studying imperial China’s foreign relations, and clear patterns of a consistent worldview emerge that are likely to shape Beijing’s perceptions and projection of power in the modern world.

CHINA WILL NOT BE A PACIFIST POWER

In an address to the United Nations General Assembly in September, Chinese President Xi Jinping repeated Beijing’s oft-stated claim that it was committed to peaceful development, and there is a widely held view that Chinese emperors of the past generally eschewed the use of force. It is certainly true that the country’s dynasties enjoyed stable relations with some of their East Asian neighbors for extended periods of time—unlike in Europe, where competing monarchies were almost constantly at each other’s throats. Modern Chinese like to contrast brutal European colonial adventures with the 15th-century voyages of Chinese Admiral Zheng He and his treasure fleets, which sailed across the Indian Ocean but conquered no one.

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[Read: Don’t believe the China hype]

But this quaint picture of Chinese pacifism ignores that the country’s dynasties were almost constantly at war. Sure, many of these wars were defensive, mainly against a panoply of invading northern tribesmen. But at the height of their power, the emperors were quite aggressive expansionists, too. The Han dynasty (206 B.C.–220 A.D.) and the Tang dynasty (618–907) had armies marching from Central Asia to the Korean peninsula. The Song dynasty (960–1279) fought wars with and sought territory from rival states; it just wasn’t very good at it. The most acquisitive of the dynasties was the Qing (1644–1912), which carved up and controlled Tibet and conquered today’s Xinjiang. The Qing emperors were Manchu, a northern people, but lands they acquired are now considered indisputable parts of the motherland. (Mao Zedong’s People’s Liberation Army had to reclaim Tibet, which had drifted away from China amid the chaos of the Qing collapse, while the Xinjiang region, which had attained a high degree of autonomy, had to be reintegrated as well.)

CHINA WILL INSIST ON ITS OWN WORLD ORDER

The states China didn’t or couldn’t overrun were absorbed into the Chinese world through a system of diplomacy and trade that the emperors controlled. Other governments were expected to pay tribute to the Chinese court as an acknowledgment of Chinese superiority, at least ceremonially, and the emperors then considered them vassals. Whether such a tribute system really existed as a hard-and-fast or consistently applied foreign policy is debated among historians. But it is clear that the Chinese usually tried to foist their diplomatic norms and practices onto those who desired formal relations with China. Think of it as the rules of the game of foreign affairs in East Asia, dictated by China.

This order was rarely challenged, at least by the more established East Asian states. Unlike Europe, where states of roughly similar muscle contended for territory, trade, and influence, China had no real rivals. Generally speaking, its neighbors accepted Chinese dominance and followed its rules of engagement.

When China faced a challenge, however, it could resort to force. The short-lived Sui dynasty (581–618) and the Tang spent decades, for example, trying to destroy the strong Koguryo kingdom in Korea. Zheng He, the supposedly peaceful admiral, launched a military expedition on the island of Sumatra (now part of Indonesia) against a rival to the local king and Chinese vassal. When the Japanese invaded the Korean peninsula in 1592, the Ming dynasty (1368–1644) sent troops to help the Koreans expel them. As late as the 1880s, the Qing dynasty went to war to aid its Vietnamese tributaries against the French. The Chinese would also police their system in other, coercive ways—by, for instance, denying proper trading rights to unruly foreigners.

So while Xi told the UN in September that Beijing “will never seek hegemony, expansion, or sphere of influence,” history suggests that China will use force or coercion against other countries when they contest Chinese power. This has implications for Vietnam and other Southeast Asian countries that dispute China’s claim to nearly all of the South China Sea, and for Taiwan, which Beijing sees as a renegade province.

[Read: Why China wants Trump to win]

There are also signs that the Chinese will restore aspects of the old imperial order as their power expands. On two occasions, Xi has summoned high-level delegations from countries participating in his infrastructure-building Belt and Road Initiative to pomp-heavy Beijing forums—tribute missions in all but name. Conversely, when countries defy Beijing’s edicts, they are denied access to its bounty. China blocked imports from Canada and Australia amid recent diplomatic tussles, and Beijing targeted South Korean businesses in China three years ago after Seoul agreed to deploy a U.S. missile defense system that the Chinese saw as a security threat.

Chinese police officers watch a cargo ship at a port in Qingdao in China’s eastern Shandong province. (AFP / Getty)

CHINA WILL EXPORT ITS VALUES

One reason supporting the notion that China will be a benign superpower is the amorality of its current foreign policy. Unlike the U.S., with its missionary zeal to bring its form of liberty to all, China doesn’t seem as interested in changing the world, this argument goes, just making money from it. There is some truth to this. The Chinese are equally happy to sell Huawei 5G networks to autocratic Russia and democratic Germany without a fuss.

Historically, though, the Chinese believed that their culture had a transformative power—it could change barbarism into civilization. Confucius himself thought so. In the Analects, China’s greatest sage expressed a desire to live among barbarian tribes. A startled listener asked how he could tolerate their uncouth habits. Not to worry, Confucius answered. “If a superior man dwelt among them, what rudeness would there be?”

Practically speaking, China’s historic statesmen didn’t really expect the world to “go Chinese,” but they did promote their civilization. Ceremonies for visiting ambassadors at the imperial court were designed to awe. Tang officials built dormitories for foreign students who wanted to study Chinese literature at the country’s famous academies. The voyages of Zheng He were meant most of all to display Chinese greatness: The Ming emperor who launched them, Yongle, imagined that the people of Cochin in southern India “went down on their hands and knees,” and, “looking to Heaven, they bowed and all said: ‘How fortunate we are that the civilizing influences of the Chinese sages should reach us.’”

The Chinese also understood the link between culture and power. Other peoples naturally looked to China, the most advanced society in East Asia, when building their own kingdoms, and they liberally borrowed legal codes and governing institutions, artistic and literary styles, and, most famously, Chinese written characters. This common cultural bond sustained Chinese influence in the region even when the country itself was politically weakened.

[Read: Is this Taiwan’s moment?]

Xi knows this full well, and he intends to build up China’s soft power by pushing Chinese values, both old and new. “Facts prove that our path and system … are successful,” he once said. “We should popularize our cultural spirit across countries as well as across time and space, with contemporary values and the eternal charm of Chinese culture.” This is the purpose of Confucius Institutes, a state-run program aimed at promoting Chinese language and culture. In the wake of Beijing’s (supposedly) superior coronavirus-busting effort, Chinese officials and state media outlets have been relentlessly marketing their (authoritarian) governance system as superior, while denigrating the (democratic) U.S. by mocking its pandemic response.

The implication of this is that modern China will prefer other countries to be more like them, not unlike the emperors of old. In imperial times, China’s rulers tended to favor foreigners who were “more Chinese.” In the first century A.D., the Chinese historian Ban Gu developed the concept of an “inner” world—comprised of societies touched by Chinese civilization—and an “outer,” of incorrigible barbarians who remained blind to China’s light. The inner crowd was treated more benignly and participated more closely in Chinese affairs. This suggests that ultimately China will support like-minded (read: authoritarian) regimes. Indeed, it already does: It befriends illiberal governments shunned by most other countries, such as North Korea, Iran, Belarus, and Venezuela.

CHINA ONLY TOLERATES RELATIONSHIPS IT CAN DOMINATE

Even in deep antiquity, the Chinese considered themselves better than other peoples because they believed that their civilization was civilization. This formed the basis of a worldview in which the Chinese sat atop the hierarchy. They did not believe in equal relationships, at least in official or ideological terms. Their world order, with its rules and norms, was based on the principle of Chinese superiority, and the acceptance of that superiority by all others. Traditionally, when the Chinese were forced into a subordinate or even an equal position with another power, usually due to military weakness, they resented it and tried to reassert their usual dominance when they were strong enough to turn the tables.

And it is happening again today. Seething at what they consider humiliations inflicted by Western powers—from the Opium War to what the Chinese call “unequal” treaties that sapped their sovereignty—China is on a mission to regain the upper hand. As Xi put it, the country “will never again tolerate being bullied by any nation.” That’s the goal behind much of his current policies, from a significant buildup of military capabilities to state-funded programs aimed at helping China overtake the West in technology. More and more, China’s diplomacy turns threatening when faced with challenges from other countries, whether the U.S., India, or Australia.

What becomes clear from an examination of China’s history is that the Chinese don’t just want to be a great power—they believe they deserve to be. In centuries past, the Chinese thought their sovereign had a right to rule “all under Heaven.” Due to the realities of technology and distance, China’s reach usually remained regional. But now, in the age of globalization, Beijing’s influence may achieve that lofty goal.

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Further reading

Hmm, this forthcoming Chinese power takeover thingy could be contentious.

Not one mention of Special Fried Rice, Szechuan Beef, or Sweet and Sour Pork in the entire damn article.

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After every incident. It is ‘Unsafe’, ‘Unprofessional’, ‘Unacceptable’ but not ‘aggressive’, ‘malicious’ or even ‘looking for a fight’. Weak.

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This was my thinking joining Blitz. So far, so bad.

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Such a rookie mistake…there’s just no room for that sort of stuff on blitz

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