Gangs

I didn't think you could get more extreme JB, but you are really on a roll tonight.
These new laws are not really new. Fascist Governments and a few Communist ones, hate groups, especially those that defy their laws like Bikies and Greenpeace. In the case of Bikies, the laws will never get used as Police already have enough clout if they choose to use it.
The issue the is more concerning is that by your reasoning Greenpeace and those idealists in their boats, cruising around disrupting those Japo whalers, are the ultimate Professional Protestors, organizing disruption, property damage, assaults and violent tactics, as well as breaking numerous laws of the sea, and should be tossed in jail. While I reckon most of us think they all mad, but doing a great job.
And back in the day, I spent days at protests over the Vietnam War, maybe not so professional but we broke a lot of laws along the way, and in the end we won.

You're advocating violence if you feel you have a cause yet I'm extreme.  

 

See I get that looney lefties live in fear of law & order but frankly I don't give a toss about their right to protest everything their overactive moral outrage chooses.  It does not & should never ever be considered to override others rights to not have their property destroyed & their person attacked & assulted.  Absolutely the Greenpeace/Sea Sheppard farktards who purposely break laws, cause damage, injuries & endanger lives at sea should be put in jail.  Just because they commit crimes hiding behind a cause does not make them above the law.  FWIW I don't support whaling & can understand Greenpeaces' outrage BUT there is the right to protest not the right to commit crimes, damage property & attack workers trying to do their jobs (what happened to your solidarity cause - japs don't count). 

 

Again though I will bring you back to the question I asked HM.  How the hell have you made this quantum leap from bikies to Greenpeace without even the remotest example of these specific changes?  Again, if Newman wanted to target greenpeace or the looney leftwing failed idealists alliance then why do it covertly under the cover of attacking bikers?  If the existing laws are enough to bring down biker gangs criminal activities then why are they not also enough to attack protest groups?  The propsed changes are not about new laws, they are from what I've read mainly new punishments.  Crimes like drug manufacturing, trafficking, extortion, fraud, assault etc are not changing they are simply saying that if you do this as part of your association with a outlaw gang then the punishments are increased & you will be sent to a specific jail.  I'm yet to hear why thats a bad thing other than the diversion towards the poor lefties wanting to violently protest. 

 

Do you really think there's anything like a significant number of 'professional protestors' out there?  'Professional' means that they do it for a living.  Who do you think these people ARE?  Who pays them?  Cos frankly I haven't seen any evidence they exist at all.  More likely the term was just invented by some ponytailed sunglasses-wearing cocaine-snorting PR/lobbying/crisis-management dipshit as a way of discrediting grassroots protests.  Complete invented boogeyman as far as I can tell.

 

I believe that the legislation will be abused by govt/law enforcement because stuff like this always is.  Go have a look at a list of the organisations that, for instance, ASIO/ASIS has spied on over the years.  The frigging world wildlife fund is one of them I'm pretty sure, ffs.  All sorts of social justice organisations.  Unions.  Political parties.  For no legit reason, just because the powers were available and someone in the organisation thought they could earn brownie points by picking on one of the enemies of the govt of the day, or else the govt of the day thought 'hey, these guys are annoying, i'll sic ASIO on them' and ASIO did just what they were told.  This is not because security forces, police, or even politicians are inherently worse than anyone else, it's just that power in whatever form will always be abused, so no body (law enforcement or otherwise) should have more power than is absolutely necessary to do their job. 

 

And while the might be no new crimes defined if you look at it incredibly narrowly, in effect there is.  What this basically does is add 10 years in prison onto any penalty you might recieve if you've so much as kept minutes at a meeting of an organisation deemed 'criminal'.  So, keep a contact list on your computer of people who want to protest the development of such-and-such, and if you then get arrested for trespass, then suddenly you're an 'office holder' and instead of getting 24 hours in the slammer you'll get a MANDATORY 10 years + 24 hours.  And yes, a judge can reduce the 24 hours to a fine etc at their option, but I don't think there's any scope to reduce the 10 years for any reason whatsoever.

 

This is a ****, clumsy, brute-force law that will be completely ineffective at tackling the people it's supposed to be aimed at, yet has incredible potential for abuse if brought to bear by this or future governments against political targets of opportunity.

So basically its just the vibe & a basless claim that it will be abused because "stuff like this always is".  Come on, you still haven't addressed the question of why the hell would they try to hide this agenda when a very open agenda of attacking protestors would garner widespread support.  Why not just introduce increased penalties & mandatory sentencing for protestors who destroy property or injure others as part of any organised protest.  Why not simply introduce tougher measures against protestors who infringe the rights of others in their protests or indeed simply increase the penalties & definitions of trespass? 

 

Unfounded claim.  Many protests are popular - I suspect the Tecoma one you hate so much would have a great deal of local support, and others such as protests against the north-south pipeline, coal-seam gas fracking, the desal plant etc etc have enormous levels of public support beyond those who actually turn up.  Most people agree with SOME protestors, if not all, so might be leery about laws targeted at the nice old ladies who are trying to stop Evilcorp from bulldozing their cottages to build a new tollway, but would be bang alongside new laws to beat up on bikies.

 

 

 

 

You say "no body (law enforcement or otherwise) should have more power than is absolutely necessary to do their job" but you then ignore the reality that these criminal organisations have flourished under the current environment. 

 

If these organisations are criminal, then by definition they have already committed crimes. Those crimes should be investigated and the perpetrators punished.  As you say yourself, these laws don't create any new offenses, they just enable more severe punishment of existing crimes.  

 

By what possible measure can you conclude that the current level of power is more or less than nessesary?  I'm not claiming either way, I'm saying lets see if this helps or if it in fact does get abused rather than simply falling back on the default possition of it must be bad.  What I know is that bikie related crime is an issue & increasingly the general public is being caught up in the violence. Police have not been able to make any meaningful impact on the criminal activities involved.  Newman is obviously exploiting these facts to appear a strong leader but maybe just maybe this may be a positive step.  Will locking up bikers for longer when convicted of serious crimes be a positive - yes.  Does half a rope make a cowboy - no. Potential is a dirty word.  Potentially any law, any power could be abused.  It doesn't mean we should simply abandon laws & reforming them.

 

I fundamentally disagree.  The first duty  of lawmakers is to not make bad law.  If a law is as transparently politically exploitable and loosely targeted as this one is, then it's bad law.  The normal thought experiment is to imagine what you'd think of this law if your political opponents were in power and using it to the hilt.  So, imagine an unscrupulous Greens govt took power (yeah, I know, not exactly likely, but bear with me...)

 

The Catholic Church, through its continual contempt for the legal process and shielding of child abusers, would certainly be eligible to be declared a criminal organisation.  Clive Palmer's companies have illegally refused to pay the carbon price.  They're criminal organisations too then, and all office-holders cop 10 years mandatory in bikie jail.  Hinch and his radio station continually violate court orders.  Lock em up.  The AFL routinely violates all sorts of labor laws with the draft and salary cap.  Off to pokey goes Vlad, everyone on the commission, and all the club heads who signed on.  Alan Jones and Tony Abbott both were a part of the 'convoy of no compromise' or whatever it was, truckies blockading Parliament house about the Carbon Price.  Piles of road laws were broken during that protest.  Should the protest, it's organisers, and participants have been declared a criminal organisation?

 

These are all entirely possible under the law.

 

You have basically taken a quantum leap of doubt without really anything but fear to support it.  Like I said IF you can ever provide a single solitary example of these measures actually being abused then we can discuss. 

 

No.  Wrong.  A competent government doesn't make bad, easily abusable law, then say 'we can discuss' only AFTER there's been concrete proof it's already been abused.  A competent government makes law bearing in mind that it may be abused, and seeking to write limits into the law so that it is as difficult as possible for the unscrupulous to abuse it.  A simple example in this case might be to limit the definition of 'criminal' organisation to those whose members have taken part in drug, violence, or sex-related crimes with a maximum sentence above 5 years, NOT any crimes whatsoever.

 

 

Until then I have no sympathy for organised criminals in whatever guise they choose.  NO I don't think professional protestors are numerous but I believe they absolutely do exists.  You may not like the term "rofessional protestor" or "rent a crowd" & it may not be strictly correct (they are not employed to protest) but they do simply go from protest to protest to organise disruptions, property damage, assaults & violent cohersion tactics.  See Anthony Main as an example of what I would deem as a professional protestor.  Then take a drive up to Tecoma & see further examples at the McDonalds.  Thats is of course if you actually do want to see evidence.  I'm sure you know they exists.

 

I suggest that persistent protestors (I'm not going to use the term 'professional' or 'rent-a-crowd' because both terms are carefully designed to suggest that money rather than sincerity motivates these people, and I have never seen any evidence or suggestion that any 'rent' or other payments have ever been made to any protestors, and so am inclined to believe the whole thing is a big hairy lie spread by those opposing the protests) are a tiny, tiny minority.  I believe they do exist, in their twos and threes maybe, the odd ex-uni-politics-communist or paranoid anti-corporate anti-government survivalist, but that the great majority of people protesting development, demolition, clearing, or even the carbon price are genuinely concerned citizens.  And once again, the law as it stands should suffice to tackle these people.  If they are so prone to repeated violence, assault, and destruction as you suggest, then they should be the subject of multiple successive criminal charges - assault, GBH, criminal damage, etc etc etc, to the extent that they'd be copping progressively increasing jail sentences as judges get more and more fed up with them.  But this isn't happening.  In the case of protests it isn't though lack of police presence - it's well documented that there's very often been more cops at Tecoma Maccas, for instance, than there have been protestors.  So I'm inclined to believe that this horrible wave of anarchic violence that you're so concerned about doesn't, in fact, exist.

 

Unfounded claim.  Many protests are popular - I suspect the Tecoma one you hate so much would have a great deal of local support, and others such as protests against the north-south pipeline, coal-seam gas fracking, the desal plant etc etc have enormous levels of public support beyond those who actually turn up.  Most people agree with SOME protestors, if not all, so might be leery about laws targeted at the nice old ladies who are trying to stop Evilcorp from bulldozing their cottages to build a new tollway, but would be bang alongside new laws to beat up on bikies.

 

You seem to suspect a lot.  What I know is that yes there is a significant local objection to the Tecoma development.  There is also a significant amount of local support for it.  There is also a significant amount of people opposed to the development who are also opposed to the violence & disruptive tactics employed by some outside influences.  Local traders for example many of which are opposed to Macca's being built have had their businesses adversely effected by the protestors driving away customers some with threats & acts of violence.  Now you seem to think this violence doesn't exist (S11, M1 never happened either I guess) but thats not what I have been told by people who actually live there so forgive me if I think you're ignorant to the true situation.  Again though you take an inch & try to turn it into a mile.  A cause may be popular BUT iI absolutely believe that the majority of people do not support violent & deliberately damaging protestors.  You need to at the very least acknowledge the difference between protest & violence just as there's the difference between these changes & the the straw city you are creating. 

 

If these organisations are criminal, then by definition they have already committed crimes. Those crimes should be investigated and the perpetrators punished.  As you say yourself, these laws don't create any new offenses, they just enable more severe punishment of existing crimes

 

So whats your issue with more severe punishments?  Other that trying to divert it away to a completely different area without any justification, is there any reason why any Gvt shoudln't look at increasing the punishments for organised crime gangs?

 

fundamentally disagree.  The first duty  of lawmakers is to not make bad law.  If a law is as transparently politically exploitable and loosely targeted as this one is, then it's bad law.  The normal thought experiment is to imagine what you'd think of this law if your political opponents were in power and using it to the hilt.  So, imagine an unscrupulous Greens govt took power (yeah, I know, not exactly likely, but bear with me...)

 

The Catholic Church, through its continual contempt for the legal process and shielding of child abusers, would certainly be eligible to be declared a criminal organisation.  Clive Palmer's companies have illegally refused to pay the carbon price.  They're criminal organisations too then, and all office-holders cop 10 years mandatory in bikie jail.  Hinch and his radio station continually violate court orders.  Lock em up.  The AFL routinely violates all sorts of labor laws with the draft and salary cap.  Off to pokey goes Vlad, everyone on the commission, and all the club heads who signed on.  Alan Jones and Tony Abbott both were a part of the 'convoy of no compromise' or whatever it was, truckies blockading Parliament house about the Carbon Price.  Piles of road laws were broken during that protest.  Should the protest, it's organisers, and participants have been declared a criminal organisation?

 

These are all entirely possible under the law

 

No.  Wrong.  A competent government doesn't make bad, easily abusable law, then say 'we can discuss' only AFTER there's been concrete proof it's already been abused.  A competent government makes law bearing in mind that it may be abused, and seeking to write limits into the law so that it is as difficult as possible for the unscrupulous to abuse it.  A simple example in this case might be to limit the definition of 'criminal' organisation to those whose members have taken part in drug, violence, or sex-related crimes with a maximum sentence above 5 years, NOT any crimes whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

So now you are deciding that its bad law & exploitable before its even been tested? FFS who do you think you are Dennis Denuto?  You do realise that its the courts who interpret the law right.  I'm sure you also know that frequently Gvt's at all levels have to make amendments to laws as a result of changing circumstance, loopholes, explotations as well as unfavorable interpretations in the courts?  You are making wild baseless legal claims about these laws being easily abusable & then don't provide any examples of the abuse or even the desire to wait & see if it even eventuates.  Are you a Qld legal expert?  Do you know the details of all existing statutes, their interpretations, torts etc.  Sorry if I'm not convinced by your extreme scenarios.  

 

I

suggest that persistent protestors (I'm not going to use the term 'professional' or 'rent-a-crowd' because both terms are carefully designed to suggest that money rather than sincerity motivates these people, and I have never seen any evidence or suggestion that any 'rent' or other payments have ever been made to any protestors, and so am inclined to believe the whole thing is a big hairy lie spread by those opposing the protests) are a tiny, tiny minority.  I believe they do exist, in their twos and threes maybe, the odd ex-uni-politics-communist or paranoid anti-corporate anti-government survivalist, but that the great majority of people protesting development, demolition, clearing, or even the carbon price are genuinely concerned citizens.  And once again, the law as it stands should suffice to tackle these people.  If they are so prone to repeated violence, assault, and destruction as you suggest, then they should be the subject of multiple successive criminal charges - assault, GBH, criminal damage, etc etc etc, to the extent that they'd be copping progressively increasing jail sentences as judges get more and more fed up with them.  But this isn't happening.  In the case of protests it isn't though lack of police presence - it's well documented that there's very often been more cops at Tecoma Maccas, for instance, than there have been protestors.  So I'm inclined to believe that this horrible wave of anarchic violence that you're so concerned about doesn't, in fact, exist.

 

Well you've gone from they don't exist to there's a tiny minority in the space of 2 posts so I'll take that as a concession.  Again I never even made a connection between provissions & laws designed & promoted to attack bikers with the wider subject of protestors - that was your leap. 

 

Again I will renew my call that IF & WHEN you can actually provide any proof that these laws are being abused then WE (not the Gvt) can discuss its merits. Until then I believe its your fears which are unfounded.

Reading the last two pages makes me understand why we need a new Prison.

 

It may even be a bikie prison.

Our glorious fuhrer Campbell Newman is building a special stalag for people who ride motorcycles in groups:
 
 
Qld anti-bikie laws include:

  • Extra powers for CMC
  • Bikie-only prison at Woodford, north of Brisbane
  • Mandatory sentences of 15 years for serious crimes committed as part of gang activity, on top of the normal penalty
  • Club office bearers will be sentenced to another 10 years in jail, and parole will only be granted if the offender cooperates with police
  • Convicted bikies subjected to strict drug tests and searches in prison
  • No gym facilities or TV access in jail
  • Phone calls in jail to be monitored, except those relating to legal reps
  • Inmates' mail opened and censored
  • Visitor contact restricted to one hour a week
  • Bikie criminals in other state prisons to be transferred to Woodford
  • Introducing a licensing regime for tattoo parlours and artists, banning bikie gang members
  • Motorcycles to be crushed as punishment for certain crimes
My heart bleeds for those poor bikers.  If only the had the choice of not being violent criminal kents :rolleyes:
Today Tonight.. is that you?
Ignorant idealist, yeah thats you.
 
well no, having actually having grown up in QLD and mainly on the GC, where these rules are mostly made for,i know violent criminal bikies, and i know non violent non-criminal bikies. much to the surprise of the blue-rinse set cowering behind their TV, they exist in equal measure. 
 
the criminal ones deserve to be locked up, and the non-criminals will be swept up in these laws. If you think that's fine, well we disagree on what constitutes basic civil liberties in a supposedly free society.
Yeah, there gunna just round up everyone on a bike & lock them up forever.  You seem to be the one cowering at the fear of these laws.  How that fark can any of that effect non-criminal biker clubs or individual bikers?  The whole idea is that it makes the punishment for those who commit crimes as part of their association with criminal bikie gangs face higher sanctions.  Its not outlawing motorcycle ownership or riding.  Its giving the police more power to attack criminal gangs (which just happen to hide behind bike ridding clubs) & the criminal justice system more ways to punish crimes.  If you CHOOSE to commit crimes in connection with a criminal bikie gang then I don't give a stuff about your idea of civil liberties.  This is not now nor will it ever be a free society, we have laws & those who break them should face the loss of liberties.
Even the govt admits they are not just broad laws for only bad criminals, but a 'catch all' on anyone who rides motorcyles in groups. It's populist policy rushed through on the back of media driven public panic by a govt with such a massive majority they weren't even able to be questioned as government moves to bypass the normal committee process . No submissions to help ensure fairness. It's Bjekle-Peterson era all over again. Whilst Newman says he 'like' to see a sunset clause, so the laws are removed when they are no longer needed , criminal laws on statute are never removed. If they are the you-beaut criminal only laws just targeting only true criminals why would you need mention to remove them? isnt a crime always a crime? well as Newman knows , not when it's over-reaching and picking up more than it should.
It is an anti freedom of association law which would be a very interesting High Court case.

Argh civil liberties being preached by a nation that was colonised mostly by criminals.

 

It's funny how these do gooder, civil liberty fairies seem to be fighting for the rights of people who break the law, rather than people who mostly try to abide by it.

and by doing so are making life worse for the majority of the nation, so they can have a warm fuzzy feeling in thier stomach that they are supposedly standing up for what's right and just.

Argh civil liberties being preached by a nation that was colonised mostly by criminals.

 

It's funny how these do gooder, civil liberty fairies seem to be fighting for the rights of people who break the law, rather than people who mostly try to abide by it.

and by doing so are making life worse for the majority of the nation, so they can have a warm fuzzy feeling in thier stomach that they are supposedly standing up for what's right and just.

What does that first sentence even mean? No relevence what so ever.

 

And as for rights; how about we just apply the same standards to everyone? Or is that too hard. I'm sick to death of watching media and/or pollies using slimy tactics to demonise those they don't like/have an agenda against. Sick to death of hearing that "a Muslim man" did this or that. When was the last time they told you an arrested party was  a Christian, or an aetheist or a Hindu? They don't tell you that - they just single out one group they wish to demonise. Here in Vic we are going all guns blazing on parolees. If someone on parole commits a crime it's all "person on parole commits crime". Never any comment on the fact that there are 4500 other people on parole who have not commited any crime. Or that for that particular crime, of the last 10,000 reported incidences, 9986 of them were committed by trusted, hard working pillars of society.

 

Argh civil liberties being preached by a nation that was colonised mostly by criminals.

 

It's funny how these do gooder, civil liberty fairies seem to be fighting for the rights of people who break the law, rather than people who mostly try to abide by it.

and by doing so are making life worse for the majority of the nation, so they can have a warm fuzzy feeling in thier stomach that they are supposedly standing up for what's right and just.

What does that first sentence even mean? No relevence what so ever.

 

And as for rights; how about we just apply the same standards to everyone? Or is that too hard. I'm sick to death of watching media and/or pollies using slimy tactics to demonise those they don't like/have an agenda against. Sick to death of hearing that "a Muslim man" did this or that. When was the last time they told you an arrested party was  a Christian, or an aetheist or a Hindu? They don't tell you that - they just single out one group they wish to demonise. Here in Vic we are going all guns blazing on parolees. If someone on parole commits a crime it's all "person on parole commits crime". Never any comment on the fact that there are 4500 other people on parole who have not commited any crime. Or that for that particular crime, of the last 10,000 reported incidences, 9986 of them were committed by trusted, hard working pillars of society.

 

I'm all for 1 standard but can't really buy into the rest of your post.  Are you actually trying to suggest that the majority of serious crimes aren't being perpertrated by repeat offenders?  You don't think criminal being let out early & then re-offending is a gross failure of the justice system?  Of course parolees are & should be in the spotlight because for far too long the justice system has slipped behind much of societies expectation on punishment.  A person like Bayley should not have been out of prison.  Now you may want to believe that 99% of women abducted, raped & killed in Vic have not been the victim of men on parole BUT you would be completely wrong.

 

Now until we can perfect the minority report we can't really know everyone who is or isn't a danger to society. In the mean time what we do know is this -  a guy with a 20 year history a sexual assaults including the rape of a 16 year old, attempetd rape of 2 more teens (served less than 2 years for that) & then further convictions for raping 5 other women should not be let out of prison into society after serving only 8 years.  That does not reflect societies expectation & thats a big reason why parole conditions are righlty being scrutinised. 

 

 

Argh civil liberties being preached by a nation that was colonised mostly by criminals.

 

It's funny how these do gooder, civil liberty fairies seem to be fighting for the rights of people who break the law, rather than people who mostly try to abide by it.

and by doing so are making life worse for the majority of the nation, so they can have a warm fuzzy feeling in thier stomach that they are supposedly standing up for what's right and just.

What does that first sentence even mean? No relevence what so ever.

 

And as for rights; how about we just apply the same standards to everyone? Or is that too hard. I'm sick to death of watching media and/or pollies using slimy tactics to demonise those they don't like/have an agenda against. Sick to death of hearing that "a Muslim man" did this or that. When was the last time they told you an arrested party was  a Christian, or an aetheist or a Hindu? They don't tell you that - they just single out one group they wish to demonise. Here in Vic we are going all guns blazing on parolees. If someone on parole commits a crime it's all "person on parole commits crime". Never any comment on the fact that there are 4500 other people on parole who have not commited any crime. Or that for that particular crime, of the last 10,000 reported incidences, 9986 of them were committed by trusted, hard working pillars of society.

 

I'm all for 1 standard but can't really buy into the rest of your post.  Are you actually trying to suggest that the majority of serious crimes aren't being perpertrated by repeat offenders?  You don't think criminal being let out early & then re-offending is a gross failure of the justice system?  Of course parolees are & should be in the spotlight because for far too long the justice system has slipped behind much of societies expectation on punishment.  A person like Bayley should not have been out of prison.  Now you may want to believe that 99% of women abducted, raped & killed in Vic have not been the victim of men on parole BUT you would be completely wrong.

 

Now until we can perfect the minority report we can't really know everyone who is or isn't a danger to society. In the mean time what we do know is this -  a guy with a 20 year history a sexual assaults including the rape of a 16 year old, attempetd rape of 2 more teens (served less than 2 years for that) & then further convictions for raping 5 other women should not be let out of prison into society after serving only 8 years.  That does not reflect societies expectation & thats a big reason why parole conditions are righlty being scrutinised. 

 

Of course Bailey should not have been free to do what he did. But that is massively selective example. What about the guy on parole after his minimum for unpaid parking fines is up? In your world he gets treated the same. And that is just bullshit. I know heaps of people who have either been paroled, or are currently on parole, and apart from one ice head (and his problem is that he keeps getting caught scoring, not hurting/robbing/whatever people), none of them have breached their parole. I have been on parole twice in my own life and never been dragged back for a breach. But what would I know. Moral outrage knows more.

 

And I'd love to see the figures to support the statement "Now you may want to believe that 99% of women abducted, raped & killed in Vic have not been the victim of men on parole BUT you would be completely wrong." Unless of course you are being disingenious and refering only to the incredibly small sample size that would fit into "abducted, raped & killed" as a single event, as opposed to those who were abducted, those who were raped, and those that were killed.

Of the four women murdered in Victoria in 2006/7 two were by their partner, one by a friend, and one by a stranger.

I don’t know how many were on parole, but I reckon you’ll struggle to get 99% of anything out of that.

 

 

 

Argh civil liberties being preached by a nation that was colonised mostly by criminals.

 

It's funny how these do gooder, civil liberty fairies seem to be fighting for the rights of people who break the law, rather than people who mostly try to abide by it.

and by doing so are making life worse for the majority of the nation, so they can have a warm fuzzy feeling in thier stomach that they are supposedly standing up for what's right and just.

What does that first sentence even mean? No relevence what so ever.

 

And as for rights; how about we just apply the same standards to everyone? Or is that too hard. I'm sick to death of watching media and/or pollies using slimy tactics to demonise those they don't like/have an agenda against. Sick to death of hearing that "a Muslim man" did this or that. When was the last time they told you an arrested party was  a Christian, or an aetheist or a Hindu? They don't tell you that - they just single out one group they wish to demonise. Here in Vic we are going all guns blazing on parolees. If someone on parole commits a crime it's all "person on parole commits crime". Never any comment on the fact that there are 4500 other people on parole who have not commited any crime. Or that for that particular crime, of the last 10,000 reported incidences, 9986 of them were committed by trusted, hard working pillars of society.

 

I'm all for 1 standard but can't really buy into the rest of your post.  Are you actually trying to suggest that the majority of serious crimes aren't being perpertrated by repeat offenders?  You don't think criminal being let out early & then re-offending is a gross failure of the justice system?  Of course parolees are & should be in the spotlight because for far too long the justice system has slipped behind much of societies expectation on punishment.  A person like Bayley should not have been out of prison.  Now you may want to believe that 99% of women abducted, raped & killed in Vic have not been the victim of men on parole BUT you would be completely wrong.

 

Now until we can perfect the minority report we can't really know everyone who is or isn't a danger to society. In the mean time what we do know is this -  a guy with a 20 year history a sexual assaults including the rape of a 16 year old, attempetd rape of 2 more teens (served less than 2 years for that) & then further convictions for raping 5 other women should not be let out of prison into society after serving only 8 years.  That does not reflect societies expectation & thats a big reason why parole conditions are righlty being scrutinised. 

 

Of course Bailey should not have been free to do what he did. But that is massively selective example. What about the guy on parole after his minimum for unpaid parking fines is up? In your world he gets treated the same. And that is just bullshit. I know heaps of people who have either been paroled, or are currently on parole, and apart from one ice head (and his problem is that he keeps getting caught scoring, not hurting/robbing/whatever people), none of them have breached their parole. I have been on parole twice in my own life and never been dragged back for a breach. But what would I know. Moral outrage knows more.

 

And I'd love to see the figures to support the statement "Now you may want to believe that 99% of women abducted, raped & killed in Vic have not been the victim of men on parole BUT you would be completely wrong." Unless of course you are being disingenious and refering only to the incredibly small sample size that would fit into "abducted, raped & killed" as a single event, as opposed to those who were abducted, those who were raped, and those that were killed.

 

 

So in support of the parole system you are giving yourself being paroled twice as a reference?  From an analitical perspective, the justice system gave you leniency & paroled you early but this didn't prevent you re-offending.  Doesn't that highlight that giving you parole didn't work?  Am I missing the point of parole here?  Isn't it meant to be a reflection that you've is some way rehabilitated?  I couldn't find the figures for Vic but a 2006 NSW Crime stat report found that "Sixty-four per cent of offenders released from prison on parole re-offend within two years of release". 

 

You agree that Bayley shouldn't have been free but what, other than the parole system, is responsible for him being free?  I would also argue that his original sentence was too lenient but you may dissagree.  Bayley is a high profile case because attacks & murders like it are thankfully not very common.  The whole case is the stuff urban legends are made of.  I'm well aware that the majority of assaults on women are perpertrated by their spouses or family members but its the more predatory behaviors that are usually an escalation of behaviors of known offenders.

 

My 99% call was in response to your claim "of the last 10,000 reported incidences, 9986 of them were committed by trusted, hard working pillars of society".  While I'm sure your figures are not meant to be literal, I believe that a far larger portion of crimes, particularly serious violent & sexual crimes are commited by repeat offenders, many of which are either on parole or have been.  Like I said, we can't possible know when those pillars of society are going to go bad but we do know where much of the really bad already is. 

You have to be kidding. No point.

Sexual assault recidivism in Australa is between two and sixteen percent, depending on your definition of recidivism.

And while those records can’t take into account the possibility of unreported offenses, the fact remains that the vast, vast majority of sexual offences (just as they are for homicide) are perpetrated by people who have never been to jail.

This isn’t something you need to believe or not believe.

People study them and publish the results.

Argh civil liberties being preached by a nation that was colonised mostly by criminals.

 

It's funny how these do gooder, civil liberty fairies seem to be fighting for the rights of people who break the law, rather than people who mostly try to abide by it.

and by doing so are making life worse for the majority of the nation, so they can have a warm fuzzy feeling in thier stomach that they are supposedly standing up for what's right and just.

LOL. Look up the term "strawman".

You can always tell when an argument is being taken too seriously in the internets. People start talking about straw men.

Gangs? 

Pathetic people.

re. Queensland's latest right wing loony. I'll never tire of the satire of Jello Biafra.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQHVzSPTec [media='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQHVzSPTec '][/media]

I'm in a gang.  We have guns.

 

 

This means I'm cool, right?

I'm in a gang.  We have guns.

 

 

This means I'm cool, right?

Do you have drugs?

I'm in a gang.  We have guns.
 
 
This means I'm cool, right?

Do you have drugs?
More than most gangs