Yes. I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was the only way.
What else has any chance of deescalating?
1 Like
In 2005 Israel forcibly removed everyone of its citizens from Gaza and returned that land to Palestinian control as a sign of good faith for peace negotiations and improved relations. Land for peace has been common practice since 1967 until 2005.
When removing itself from Gaza they left incredibly established towns, farms, agriculture and infrastructure. All of which were levelled immediately.
The Palestinian ‘leadership’ is the biggest impediment to their success. They use their resources and funding largely for personal gain and terrorism infrastructure, including the construction of terror tunnels so they can burrow into Israeli towns and murder the inhabitants. Redirecting the funds so their people would be helpful. Palestinians are easily one of the largest recipients of foreign aid per capita.
Acts of terrorism are celebrated and antisemitism is deeply rooted in Palestinian culture. From the very textbooks they receive in school, to the street signs named after terrorists, to handing out candy in the street when Jewish children are murdered in their beds.
The PA has a ‘pay to slay’ policy which essentially means that terrorists and their families receive ongoing payments from the government. This is an obvious endorsement and support for terrorists. Imagine if the Australian government acted this way? How understanding would you be?
They are also not unified, with one group controlling Gaza and another the West Bank, but both with terrorist intentions and backing.
The justification of terrorism on this group is bewildering. The specific targeting of civilians through bombings, stabbings and Rockets should never be justifiable.
The empty comments of ‘what did you expect’ ‘what choice do they have’ ‘they’re largely ineffectual’ are abhorrent.
To be clear, they are targeting innocent civilians. Not government, not officials, not military, not infrastructure but civilians. That isn’t resistance that is terrorism.
This doesn’t change the fact that Israel could and arguably should do better. But your are allowing your moral compass to common sense to be applied differently in this scenario.
2 Likes
If the Palestinians put down their guns, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel.
3 Likes
No one here has or is justifying violence.
1 Like
Really. So then Israel will return land through land swaps for 1967 line, give Palestinians East Jerusalem as their capital and offer compensation for those forcibly removed from their home.
What does peace look like? How much is each side going to compromise because it will require compromise.
Can Jerusalem be split? Is that tolerable?
Israel has a right to exist peacefully without fear of being under attack.
Palestinians also have this right.
But Palestinians are not the only blocker to peace which your posts seem to indicate. The use of rockets from Hamas is inexcusable and if they were out of the picture then a step forward would be made. But don’t pretend Israel is the entire victim for this situation.
2 Likes
I recall Israel bulldozing buildings on the exit from Gaza - filmed on MSM - and a subsequent blockade preventing building materials entering Gaza.
1 Like
This sounded interesting so I looked into it.
I’ll be generous and say that your statement here is merely… a ‘contested’ version of events.
TLDR:
-Israeli government destroyed all the homes that they evacuated themselves so they wouldn’t be looted (?)
More importantly:
-The agriculture consisted of 1000 acres of greenhouses. 500 of these acres were destroyed by the jewish owners who were unhappy with payment to leave.
-Some of the remaining greenhouses were looted by Palestinians but remained structurally sound. Following outside investment from the west they became functional and productive again
-Per treaty the Karni crossing (cargo terminal) would be open 24/7 for Palestine to export their goods. It was mostly closed by Israel citing ‘security concerns’. Palestine couldn’t export the produce from the rebuilt greenhouses and the whole operation died.
-Finally, some contest that the decision to give the land up to ‘Palestinian control’ is mostly a demographic issue. If Israel swallowed up the whole area as part of Israel then inevitably jews would be outnumbered by arabs in Israel, a democratic country. They effectively made the decision to stop millions of arabs from becoming Israeli citizens and outvoting them in the future.
That TLDR was too long but eh.
I’m aware that there’s a possibility I’ve been misinformed by propaganda, but I’m somewhat satisfied with the sauces I looked at though. Are you?
Uhhh I mentioned that…
If this is what constitutes a rebuttal to my post/what I read, then I can leave this thread even more confident in the sauces I found.
A bit simplistic, as this would be peace on Israeli terms, and given the outside interference on both sides would never happen.
Fatah committed to peace on 1967 borders and dropped its aim to eliminated Israel. Hamas also commited to 1967 borders but still aim for Israel to disappear. You and others call them terrorists, but there is many who think they are fighting for their land aand people, and support them. Both have participated in the democratic elections in Palestine.
I have always thought commonsense will prevail, but as I get older and listen to both sides, there is little commonsense and unitl Iran stops meddling noothing will change.
1 Like
Peace in the sense that there would be fighting. Israel has shown an ability to deliver on peace - look at its relationship with Egypt since the 1979 peace treaty.
Israel is also establishing peace accords with countries throughout the ME including the likes of UAE and others. I believe a peace agreement could be made in the next few years between Israel and Saudi Arabia - something previously thought unimaginable.
Israel and Israelis have a strong desire for peace.
Now what that final agreement looks like is a matter for negotiation. I can only say that previous administrations have made offers that have been met with silence and terror.
One such offer at the end of 2008 from then Israeli PM Ehud Olmert: International supervision of Jerusalem’s holy sites, the symbolic return of a few thousand Palestinian refugees and reportedly Israeli withdrawal from 93.7% of the West Bank, plus the equivalent of 5.8% of its area from Israel in a land swap. Mr Abbas’s team said it produced a map which offered to let the Israelis keep 1.9% of the West Bank in exchange for land in Israel.
But I don’t believe the problem is one of semantics over land swaps.
I believe that fundamentally the Palestinians do not want two States side by side - they want the end of Israel altogether. It’s in Hamas’ charter so it’s not merely a matter of belief. They also fail to even recognise Israel.
Then you have to account for the disharmony in leadership between Hamas and PA. On the topic of PA, Abbas was elected to serve until 2009 but has ruled without elections since that period as they are corrupt to the core. So you don’t have good faith partners that you can trust to make and keep peace.
Then you have to consider borders. Israel is a tiny, tiny country (3.3x smaller than Tasmania). If Israel cedes certain territory to Palestinians, they greatly undermine their own security. It would be impossible to protect against terror attacks if you literally have your enemies at your doorstep. So what then?
The fact of the matter is, for peace to occur you need several things we don’t currently have:
- A genuine desire for peace on the Palestinian side including the absolute basics of recognition that Israel has a right to exist
- Peace partners that won’t be overthrown the moment they come to terms with Israel. That can be trusted to hold their end, keep their word and ensure that no conflict breaks out
- Agreements in place to ensure that Israel can protect the security of its citizens
At the end of the day, Israelis are not going to jeopardise their lives without real assurances. It would be suicide to do otherwise.
1 Like
I’m not familiar with the rest of what you said so I can’t comment, but I’m pretty sure your source website is a propogandist one. I went to a similarly propogandist one to validate what I was saying.
So all in all, what would you have Israel do that wouldn’t dangerously compromise its security or completely eradicate its existence?
Possibly, but it did contain outside sauces to basically every claim made (BBC, NYT etc) which I checked. Including addressing every point mentioned in the article you posted which was somewhat lacking in the sauce.
Also, pulling the “I’m not familiar with this so can’t comment” is a bit rich considering my post was a reaction/disputing an assertion you already made.
So yeah, claim something… get disputed by a litany of sauces… then claim you can’t comment on the correction because you aren’t familiar with the content. Nice.
For the record I have no side in this because it’s a partisan quagmire, I merely read a claim I found fascinating and researched the validity.
1 Like
Civilian buses getting bombed too
The withdrawal was a dreadful time all round. Settlers refusing to leave, wearing the Star of David, being dragged out by the military.
There was a backlash within Israel about some of the settlers claiming anti-semitism and wearing the Star of David, drawing analogies with the Holocaust.
When a judgment was made by the Government of Israel that the exit was in the interests of the citizens of Israel.
From memory, I recall Netanyahu, then in Opposition, fanning the flames.
3 Likes
What I said is factually true
1 Like
It was directly disput… (sigh) nevermind.
Why bother. I can’t tell if you’re trolling or indoctrinated.
Either way, the end result for my time/effort is the same. I’m out. Thanks for leading me to educate myself on something with your misinformation though.
1 Like
I will not dispute you on the granular details. It is a hugely complex and ugly situation. Israel is often presented with lose lose scenarios.
I do not say that Israel should play softly and lead the de-escalation out of a sense of moral judgement. I see it as the only path that can eventually achieve peace. Someone needs to lead this, it may not be fair that Israel shoulders most of that burden and the risks it brings, but if nobody makes a move this will never ever change.
And to be clear, when I say something is understandable or predictable does not mean I support the violence and anti-Semitism. Force has failed to achieve peace for 70 years, empathy and cunning in my opinion have far better chances of getting a result that protects the Israeli civilians over the long term.
3 Likes
Sorry to have disappointed you.