the other, and perhaps most significant, thing in this is the suggestion the TB-4 is an ingredient in humanofort. It had not previously occurred to me but perhaps WADA intend to appeal on the basis that the players received TB-4 in the humanofort and not through independent administration of that specific substance.
If only someone had an actual sample of the Humanofort and had it tested to see if there were any illegal substances in it, including TB4.
Oh.
Wait.
yeah i know, i wasn’t suggesting that this helps them advance there case against the players. It was just an avenue of argument i hadn’t appreciated before now.
the other, and perhaps most significant, thing in this is the suggestion the TB-4 is an ingredient in humanofort. It had not previously occurred to me but perhaps WADA intend to appeal on the basis that the players received TB-4 in the humanofort and not through independent administration of that specific substance.
If only someone had an actual sample of the Humanofort and had it tested to see if there were any illegal substances in it, including TB4.
Oh.
Wait.
Humanofort also allegedly contains IGF-1, Mechano Growth Factors, and other WADA-illegal growth factors, so why just the TB4 angle from ASADA?? This is getting more farcical (if that is possible!) None of these substances, don’t show up in any prior testing done (including TB4) on the product. It is a TGA approved product that is freely and legally available through several lon-line pharmacies. This is comparable to ASADA nailing us because their protein shake powder has a bit of caffeine in it.
As I’ve said a number of times on this forum before, I find the fact that ASADA hung their ‘TB4 hat’ solely on Humanofort both utterly laughable and extremely furious - that this whole fkn saga is all because of this.
the other, and perhaps most significant, thing in this is the suggestion the TB-4 is an ingredient in humanofort. It had not previously occurred to me but perhaps WADA intend to appeal on the basis that the players received TB-4 in the humanofort and not through independent administration of that specific substance.
If only someone had an actual sample of the Humanofort and had it tested to see if there were any illegal substances in it, including TB4.
That 1st paragraph by Wilko7 reflects part of the problem here. Wilko7 mentions medical experimentation, no informed consent, recklessness, gross betrayal of trust etc. He states these as fact, but given no defense has been mounted (by Dank) and there has been no legal forum for the club or players to challenge these accusations, except for the issue as to whether our players took TB4, these remain untested claims from a joint investigation which began with the assumption of Dank's guilt.
Wilko7 confuses the issue of due process which Dank never received with support for Dank’s innocence. They’re not the same thing.
The level of Dank’s guilt ie his degree of recklessness, ignorance of the rules, refusal to follow club established protocol (if there was any), and negligence in not keeping detailed records cannot be clearly understood unless Dank presents his version of the rationale and safety of the program and its implementation, and this is compared with the club’s understanding supported by our medical advice that the supplements are all safe.
It seems almost certain this will never happen.
Don’t make me laugh. Dank chose not to turn up to defend himself, despite being given every opportunity to do so. Saying he doesn’t like who has convened the Tribunal and the manner in which it is conducted doesn’t come close to establishing a lack of due process. You might want to look up what the requirement actually means. It doesn’t mean you’re innocent as long as you say you don’t like it.
It it also very far from anything resembling legal process to say no conclusions can be drawn if Dank doesn’t tell his side of the story. The evidence referred to in the Tribunal proceedings - including Dank’s own text messages - speaks very clearly.
You’re suspending disbelief in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary. If you don’t believe the evidence on the record, you might at least ask yourself this. Jobe Watson’s anger at what he and the players had been subjected to in 2012 was transparent in the press conference he gave. He spoke of “what happened to us should never have been allowed to happen”. I find it curious that Jobe would be so upset by a process that was totally well documented, totally safe, and totally approved. I guess he’s just making it all up, like everyone else, like the text messages, and the testimony of Reid, Hird and Thompson. Everyone lacks credit, except for the man who has never explained himself in any forum where the evidence can be put to him.
Dank didn’t show up to defend himself for a very good reason. He knew this was a political fix up right from the start. So he was not going to bother show up to the kangaroo court as he calls it. I would have done the exact same thing if I was in his position even if I had all the evidence to prove myself home free. This is the part many don’t get if Dank had of played all his cards early ASADA and WADA could twist it all to suit there view just like they have with everything else from the saga.
This whole saga had Danks guilt pre-determined and Dank and his lawyers are smart enough to see this.
Dank has been careless in my view for bringing illegal (for players) substances to the club for the support staff. But until I see evidence of illegal activity he should not be treated like an evil monster. Who lives in cave (with a dodgy gate).
Did you care to think that Jobe’s anger may be directed at the club for self reporting? For making the players agree to interviews? For bending over and taking it up the bum because Vlad said so. The club should have never self reported, never agreed to have the AFL in the same room as ASADA. The club let the players down in so many ways that has absolutely nothing to do with what the players where injected with, nor governance. This is likely why he is so ■■■■■■ angry and should be.
Don’t believe what the media has conditioned the public to believe. Its all BS.
The ASADA/AFL joint investigation was compromised. This does not mean Dank is innocent. No one is asserting this. Similarly his level of guilt is not clear as the facts of the case have not been derived from a thorough testing of the prosecution’s case . Regardless of the penalty Dank receives, the remaining charges fall well short of the crimes which Dank has been accused of.
Who said no conclusions can be drawn? Of course you can conclude if you want, but the problem is you are basing conclusions on a one-sided investigation that set out to prove a predetermined position.
Don’t create ridiculous straw man arguments by rambling on about well documented etc. It is you making up this crap, not those of us who recognise a corrupted AFL/ASADA process. The club has already admitted these failings and been penalised severely for them, and as Hird said recently, of course the players and their families have every right to be disappointed at what happened at the club. Those are facts.
But your interpretation of gross betrayal, medical experimentation, unsafe drug cocktails etc etc is contrary to the limited information which has been made public by the club eg through the parent meeting process, and reflects your own inability to separate fact from fiction.
the other, and perhaps most significant, thing in this is the suggestion the TB-4 is an ingredient in humanofort. It had not previously occurred to me but perhaps WADA intend to appeal on the basis that the players received TB-4 in the humanofort and not through independent administration of that specific substance.
i have only very briefly scanned this transcript bust rest assured this will become a tent pole in a new round of ‘get Hird’.
The other thing i will say is that it reads likely a properly convened court hearing which, i think, lends weight to the argument that the player’s matters were properly heard, considered and ruled on.
What you can see from that transcript is how ASADA build a cumulative case, adding each additional text message to build their circumstantial case. And apart from the issue of whether TB4 was given to the players, this circumstantial case has never been tested or interrogated by a properly constructed legal defense.
What the transcript shows very clearly is someone who was totally reckless as to the job he was supposed to do and betrayed everyone at the club - including the coaches and the players - who put their trust in him. This goes for failure to follow the protocols that were agreed with Dr Reid. It goes for the failure to do something as basic as getting the informed consent of the players to the treatments they were given, which is a betrayal of trust that is even more disgraceful when the players had expressly asked for meetings to be assured exactly what they were going to be given. And the gross betrayals of anything resembling basic standards of care with regards to documenting what he was administering. And perhaps most seriously (if the preceeding weren’t enough) the texts that establish his intention to conduct what amounted to medical experimentation on the players as to the unproven and untested combination of therapies.
I really do not understand the handful of people who are backing Dank on this. For all the complaints directed at Evans, the rest of the 2012 board, Robinson, Bomber, and Hird - this is the guy they all put their trust in. And this is the guy who did so much that ended up destroying so much at our club and the people involved.
The sooner people get rid of this misplaced attachment to Stephen “I’ll have some information which will clear the players very shortly” Dank, the better.
EDIT: And the only reason you don’t hear those denunciations of Dank coming from the club or the people involved is that everyone is terrified what he might say about TB-4 if they finger him with the responsibility he deserves. That’s why Hird and the Club have copped it in the neck for 3 years and never truly spoken back.
That 1st paragraph by Wilko7 reflects part of the problem here. Wilko7 mentions medical experimentation, no informed consent, recklessness, gross betrayal of trust etc. He states these as fact, but given no defense has been mounted (by Dank) and there has been no legal forum for the club or players to challenge these accusations, except for the issue as to whether our players took TB4, these remain untested claims from a joint investigation which began with the assumption of Dank's guilt.
Wilko7 confuses the issue of due process which Dank never received with support for Dank’s innocence. They’re not the same thing.
The level of Dank’s guilt ie his degree of recklessness, ignorance of the rules, refusal to follow club established protocol (if there was any), and negligence in not keeping detailed records cannot be clearly understood unless Dank presents his version of the rationale and safety of the program and its implementation, and this is compared with the club’s understanding supported by our medical advice that the supplements are all safe.
It seems almost certain this will never happen.
Don’t make me laugh. Dank chose not to turn up to defend himself, despite being given every opportunity to do so. Saying he doesn’t like who has convened the Tribunal and the manner in which it is conducted doesn’t come close to establishing a lack of due process. You might want to look up what the requirement actually means. It doesn’t mean you’re innocent as long as you say you don’t like it.
It it also very far from anything resembling legal process to say no conclusions can be drawn if Dank doesn’t tell his side of the story. The evidence referred to in the Tribunal proceedings - including Dank’s own text messages - speaks very clearly.
You’re suspending disbelief in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary. If you don’t believe the evidence on the record, you might at least ask yourself this. Jobe Watson’s anger at what he and the players had been subjected to in 2012 was transparent in the press conference he gave. He spoke of “what happened to us should never have been allowed to happen”. I find it curious that Jobe would be so upset by a process that was totally well documented, totally safe, and totally approved. I guess he’s just making it all up, like everyone else, like the text messages, and the testimony of Reid, Hird and Thompson. Everyone lacks credit, except for the man who has never explained himself in any forum where the evidence can be put to him.
That 1st paragraph by Wilko7 reflects part of the problem here. Wilko7 mentions medical experimentation, no informed consent, recklessness, gross betrayal of trust etc. He states these as fact, but given no defense has been mounted (by Dank) and there has been no legal forum for the club or players to challenge these accusations, except for the issue as to whether our players took TB4, these remain untested claims from a joint investigation which began with the assumption of Dank’s guilt.
Wilko7 confuses the issue of due process which Dank never received with support for Dank’s innocence. They’re not the same thing.
The level of Dank’s guilt ie his degree of recklessness, ignorance of the rules, refusal to follow club established protocol (if there was any), and negligence in not keeping detailed records cannot be clearly understood unless Dank presents his version of the rationale and safety of the program and its implementation, and this is compared with the club’s understanding supported by our medical advice that the supplements are all safe.
Call me naive, but until now I would have assumed that the Australian Government might have been interested in a situation where an Australian citizens employment in Australia can be severely damaged by an international tribunal with no recourse to an Australian court on the basis of fact.
I would have thought if they came across that sort of situation they’d go, ‘Eh? That can’t be right. Have to fix that.’
But apparently not.
That is what Senator Madigan is very concerned about and will form the basis of an inquiry.
I still don’t understand…if the basis of the appeal revolves around the AFLs anti-doping code, why don’t they appeal this to an Australian court and get the AFL to permanently set aside the CAS ruling. Surely that has a better chance of success?
What you can see from that transcript is how ASADA build a cumulative case, adding each additional text message to build their circumstantial case. And apart from the issue of whether TB4 was given to the players, this circumstantial case has never been tested or interrogated by a properly constructed legal defense.
What the transcript shows very clearly is someone who was totally reckless as to the job he was supposed to do and betrayed everyone at the club - including the coaches and the players - who put their trust in him. This goes for failure to follow the protocols that were agreed with Dr Reid. It goes for the failure to do something as basic as getting the informed consent of the players to the treatments they were given, which is a betrayal of trust that is even more disgraceful when the players had expressly asked for meetings to be assured exactly what they were going to be given. And the gross betrayals of anything resembling basic standards of care with regards to documenting what he was administering. And perhaps most seriously (if the preceeding weren’t enough) the texts that establish his intention to conduct what amounted to medical experimentation on the players as to the unproven and untested combination of therapies.
I really do not understand the handful of people who are backing Dank on this. For all the complaints directed at Evans, the rest of the 2012 board, Robinson, Bomber, and Hird - this is the guy they all put their trust in. And this is the guy who did so much that ended up destroying so much at our club and the people involved.
The sooner people get rid of this misplaced attachment to Stephen “I’ll have some information which will clear the players very shortly” Dank, the better.
EDIT: And the only reason you don’t hear those denunciations of Dank coming from the club or the people involved is that everyone is terrified what he might say about TB-4 if they finger him with the responsibility he deserves. That’s why Hird and the Club have copped it in the neck for 3 years and never truly spoken back.