The hurley/carlisle swap. Game over

I'd just like them to play at least 1 of them actually in the forward line.  It is absolutely pointless having Jake & Joe roaming up the ground & then expecting them to sprint back forward & make possition.  Their strength is their height - use it.  They are both mobile for their height BUT they are not more mobile than the majority of defenders who are smaller & quicker.  They will not outrun most defenders & so end up stationery targets with 2-3 defenders jumping all over them - its stupidity.  Have 1 of them starting deeper so they can at least have the option of leading at the ball carrier.

  

Think I'll be reserving my judgement for at least half a season, not after a game where its obvious the team was flat and still recovering from whatever flu/illness that'■■■■■ the joint.

Agree this debate is a bit premature. Give it another month or so and hopefully we will not need to have it.
We need Winders and BJ back in our forward line to compliment JD and Jake. Good marking lead up forwards like Winders, BJ, Monfries, Crameri and ............Hurley were missing from our forward line last night.

We’ve ruined J. Carlisle. When Fletch retires, he goes back as well. We need to find a forward to help JD that isn’t Jobe…

Hurley's not going back to the forward line, he can't cope with it physically. If he plays ANZAC Day, which there's every reason to believe he will, it will be his longest continuous streak of games since 2011 (7 games in which he played defense for the middle two). There's no point switching him forward, then having to put Carlisle there anyway every third week because Hurley's too broken to play.

 

I don't like Carlisle forward for the same reasons everyone else has already covered, basically he'd rather take a match saving mark than kick a match winning goal, and putting players who don't love kicking goals in the forward line just doesn't work. We've had a lot of tall forwards leave the list in the last five or six years for a variety of different reasons, so I don't think it's poor list management, but I hope we get one to play alongside Joe at the end of this year.

I think people a knee jerk reacting with this, there is certainly not enough game time to definitively say is has or hasn’t worked, particularly with Carlisle rucking for two weeks.

Carlisle played two, not brilliant but ok games up forward at the start and Hurley has played every game, which in itself is a new territory.

Playing forward has also become infinintly harder too, Reiwolt appears to be the only modern forward capable of consistent performance. With every other key forward struggling to play good footy week in week out.

Another point I think that is being missed is just how reliant KPP are on the performance of the midfield. Dominant mids make KPP look like superstars, struggling mids make then look ■■■■■. Carlisles performance last night was exacerbated by our mids not giving quality supply, similarly with Hurley, Reiwolt won based on better supply, not being because he man handled Hurley.

Next I think you have to take into account last year Carlsile had the benefit of support from Hooker, Fletch, hibbo and Dempsey supporting too. As a forward he is the main target supported by an exuberant kid and a bunch of smalls trying to feed of his contest. It’s a challenge that he is struggling to come to terms with this far.

I think Belly will be a most welcome addition this week. He has some natural Key Forward instinct, can take the best defender and will allow Carlisle to not be a key focus for defenders. This is something I think Ambrose did well in the first two weeks, and belly will do even better when he returns.

Reiwoldt got 2 of his goals from our pathetic turnovers and one when our defenders pushed up too far and saints had a spare man. 3 of Reiwoldts goal, Hurley or any other defender could do nothing about.

Man, if only Cale Hooker got half the leeway in previous years that Hurley is getting now.

He got well beaten last night, off the back of being well beaten last week.

Let’s not sugar coat it.

I think the expectations on Carlisle are incredibly unfair. The lack of patience and unwillingness for a ballsy switch to be given the time to materialise is quite disappointing.

 

Whilst admitting that Carlisle hasn't been very good thus far it is important to note:

 

- Hurley was a very poor forward. Besides crashing packs he offered very little.

- Hurley looks a far better backman. He looks organised, gels well with the others, is courageous and generally uses the ball extremely well. He is playing in a less bash and crash position and in doing so is putting games together which is encouraging.

-Carlisle played 1 full game up forward before being sent to ruck against man mountains, including in hot conditions. He hasn't has the continuity of position to improve markedly.

-I am pretty sure he was one of the players battling the flu prior to the freo game and since running is one of his strong points, he has obviously been hampered.

- The kicking to him has been horrid.

- Probably needs a Tommy Bell type to break packs for him to get the most out of his role.

- Slow movement to the forward line allows opposition midfielders extra time to outnumber us. Carlisle is a player that can take a contested grab but is most suited to getting it on the lead.

 

I would consider resting Joey this week, easing Tommy Bell by playing him from the square all game with the expectation of him using his bulk to create contests, and play Carlisle as a lead up forward with short stints in the ruck to exploit the running deficiencies of a Witts.

I've always been in the Hurley forward, Carlisle back camp, but up until yesterday I thought the change was going okay.

I'm not going to start tearing my hair out over one bad game.

Man, if only Cale Hooker got half the leeway in previous years that Hurley is getting now.
He got well beaten last night, off the back of being well beaten last week.
Let's not sugar coat it.

Come on Penos. Seriously. How about you give him the time and leeway to develop as a defender that you demanded he be given as a forward. You accepted years of mediocrity, without any real improvement there, but are bagging him after a handful of games at FB.


Man, if only Cale Hooker got half the leeway in previous years that Hurley is getting now.
He got well beaten last night, off the back of being well beaten last week.
Let's not sugar coat it.

Come on Penos. Seriously. How about you give him the time and leeway to develop as a defender that you demanded he be given as a forward. You accepted years of mediocrity, without any real improvement there, but are bagging him after a handful of games at FB.

I've said a number of times, let's keep it as is this year, for that very reason.
But he has still been well beaten two weeks in a row. No point saying otherwise.
WARNING: Long post ahead.
 
Also, some of the points have been made while I was writing it. Nevertheless...
 
 
There are some insidious fallacies starting to dig into the groupmind around here that need to be debunked.
 
Fallacy #1 - Carlisle was 'almost' AA last year as a defender
 
Truth: Several members of the media pumped Carlisle's tyres as a possible AA contender until about round 15. However, 99% of the members of the media are idiots. It's all very convenient for Blitzers to ignore this well established fact when it suits their arguments. Furthermore, at least part of what made Carlisle's performance so impressive were the occasional, and highly effective, transitions into the forward line. They flattered some of his games.
 
 
Fallacy #2 - Hurley provides a 'presence', aka Hurley "constantly presents", aka "crashes packs"
 
Truth: This is a case of revision of history to suit the story. Yeah Hurley often created a contest, sometimes spectacularly. But "constantly"/"consistently" ... come on. Lack of repeat efforts was one of the major problems for the forward line last year. Maybe the Carlisle/Daniher combination is worse for repeat efforts (I honestly couldn't say), but that doesn't make it a strength of Hurley's. 
 
His aerobic capacity is not good enough, yet. But worse, his running patterns and forward-play 'nous' are terrible. These contests that everyone is suddenly so enamored of, more often than not he was cleaning up one of his teammates in the process because they both led to the same spot.
 
 
Fallacy #3 - We should put both Carlisle and Hurley in defence and recruit a forward
 
Truth: Can't be done. Not for, oh, about 3 years anyway. 
 
We would be almost no chance of securing a quality, established KPF in the trade/draft/free agency swapmeet this year. They don't move all that often (except to Sydney), and we would not have the salary cap for one until Goddard's contract rolls off.
 
Any 18 year old draftee would not make the difference for at least 3 years, unless they are like Patton (sans ACL) or Boyd, but they were #1 picks, which we won't have.
 
We probably should draft a couple of forwards (including at least one tall), but that won't solve the Hurley/Carlisle issue, or our forward line/scoring issues in 2014/2015/2016.
 
 
Fallacy #4 - Carlisle sucks and/or sulks as a forward
 
Truth: Ants' post (http://bomberblitz.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1212-the-hurleycarlisle-swap/?p=175127) sufficiently demonstrates that for the first two games this year Carlisle showed both application and ability. Then he went into the ruck (so no longer a forward) and did well, then got smashed in the ruck, then the whole team got smashed by a superior effort from an inferior side and it looked bad. 
 
There is no formline in that story. 
 
Against the 'aints, everyone looked bad, and uninterested, and lazy, and pathetic. But Carlisle was the only one sulking because he was being forced to play as a forward? 
 
 
Fallacy #5 - Hurley has not played well in defence
 
[This fallacy is not widespread, nor stated as explicitly as this, but it is clearly creeping into the narrative at the fringes.]
 
Truth: Riewoldt is an excellent player in (near) career-best form and he more or less won the game for the 'aints. Hurley won some contests (and I really liked a couple of those marking duels where Hurley took the body) but, yeah, Riewoldt got away from him.
 
Previously, Hurley had flattened Black (okay, not a world-beater), blanketed Roughead (or was it Gunston - I don't remember), and had 23 possessions in the whitewash against Carlton. I didn't watch the game against Freo (no Foxtel), but I doubt he had a good day  in a near 10-goal loss. 
 
Up until last night (or possibly last Sunday), based on my own viewings and the majority of others' comments we had a defender who:
  • Attacked the contest;
  • Showed surprising speed to keep/catch up on the lead;
  • Won grapples and other marking contests - side-by-side, in front, and from behind;
  • Marked in his hands out in front after dashing past his opponent;
  • Spoiled aggressively;
  • Distributed the ball, long or short, left or right side.
He hasn't had as many members of the media lining up to suck him off as Carlisle-2013 (although there are a few, including Leigh Matthews who had previously doubted the switch), so he is not going to 'almost' be AA, but he has shown himself to be a good defender with the potential for much higher heights than it looked like he would achieve as a forward.
 
 
Fallacy #6 - [Implicit] No one ever improves
 
Truth: This is classic Blitz. A couple of bad games from someone learning their role, and they are rubbish and will never be good at it and things should be changed. Usually it is more like "drop Melksham", "delist Baguly", "shouldadraftedCyril", but this is exactly the same linear, short-sighted mentality.
 
I don't know if Carlisle can be a good forward. I do know that I am not surprised that he is not there yet. I do know that he is 23 this year, he has just gone past 50 senior games of which only a handful have been in the forward line. I do know that players often improve, and rarely in a predictable, linear fashion.
 
I also know that Hurley had just about proven he was never going to make the grade as a top key forward. Hypocritical? Possibly, but I don't think so. He had 4-5 years to learn the position, with limited signs of progress, and some signs of regress. "But they were injury interrupted". Sure, partly because nearly the only thing he was good at doing as a forward was running into people - hard. There's a good chance he would have continued to get injured, so continued to disrupt his development, and so never get the opportunity to learn all the things he clearly had not learned by the end of 2013.

How about we let both Hurley and Carlisle play down back where they play their best football

 

Utilise this as a forwardline:

 

Howlett     Hooker    Winderlich

 

Chapman   Daniher  Goddard

Regardless of who is FWD (including Joe & resting ruck), I’d like to know why our fwds never seem to want to take the ball out in front and on the lead. Has to be a combination of poor delivery and poor leading, but it hasn’t been rectified in years. Other than with our small fwds, the only time we seem to do it properly is when the game is on the line and there has been a shift (def-fwd). Then it seems to click, the fwd leads better and there are far fewer bombs away inside 50’s. That’s my theory for why the “switch” players appear to be the better fwd (e.g hooker last night). Have at it…

Carlisle and Daniher have 7 goals between in 5 rounds. Anyone who thinks it’s working is delusional.

Carlisle and Daniher have 7 goals between in 5 rounds. Anyone who thinks it's working is delusional.

Straw men and short sightedness.

 

I am pretty sure no one thinks it has worked (well) in the first 5 rounds. The real question is whether it will work. 

We've ruined J. Carlisle. When Fletch retires, he goes back as well. We need to find a forward to help JD that isn't Jobe...

And so begins the trade talk. There's a wealth of KPPs in this year's draft.... If only Gumby had worked out. We'd be laughing right now!


Carlisle and Daniher have 7 goals between in 5 rounds. Anyone who thinks it's working is delusional.

Straw men and short sightedness.
I am pretty sure no one thinks it has worked (well) in the first 5 rounds. The real question is whether it will work.

It won't work. Plain and simple.
Carlisle isn't a forward, Hurley isn't a forward and neither is Hooker.
We have Daniher as a TRUE key forward and that is it.
Until we get GENUINE key FORWARDS then we won't have a at least a somewhat functional forwardline and that is the cold hard truth of it.
Moulding established players into something they are not (Carlisle) is only going to make them go backwards and that is what has happened so far.

Carlisle and Daniher have 7 goals between in 5 rounds. Anyone who thinks it's working is delusional.

Straw men and short sightedness.
I am pretty sure no one thinks it has worked (well) in the first 5 rounds. The real question is whether it will work.

It won't work. Plain and simple.
Carlisle isn't a forward, Hurley isn't a forward and neither is Hooker.
We have Daniher as a TRUE key forward and that is it.
Until we get GENUINE key FORWARDS then we won't have a at least a somewhat functional forwardline and that is the cold hard truth of it.
Moulding established players into something they are not (Carlisle) is only going to make them go backwards and that is what has happened so far.

How many games are you basing this on?
The one yesterday or the against North.
That is your sample size.

I think it will all be fine once belchambers is back

Not if we play him the same way we have Carlisle & JD.  TBell is not a roving forward he is a slow ruckman who is very strong & can take overhead contested marks.  Leave him close to goal & he can be a target, drag him outside 50, as we continually do with JD & JC & like them he will be exposed for lack of pace & agility by smaller opponents.  He can not & will not outrun nearly all key defenders in the game so when he's not in the ruck he should be played deep.  You can't replace the agility, flexibility & overhead strength of Crameri with 200cm players. 

JD is about 40 games and at least one, probably 2 seasons away for being a valuable key forward.
Until then, or until someone else magically appears, Essendon’s forward line will be make-shift and probably
struggle as often or not.