Australian Politics, Mark II


#9519

Oh really? You actually think that it’s a good idea – or at least one that you can condone by inaction – for police to raid journalists’ offices or homes? Or do you need unionists’ homes to be raided before you accept that this is real threat to freedom of expression in this country.

The slope is slippery my friend but it doesn’t pick up speed until it gets to the bottom…


#9520

And the “criminal activity” is what exactly? Possession of documents handed over by a whistleblower? Since when is that a crime?

Further, if the documents are handed over in the service of preventing another, larger crime – such as spying on the Australian population – you can’t see that while the law may be broken, justice is strengthened? Or you’d prefer not to assess a case in its merits and instead rest on half-baked biases against journalists?

Remember the old Neimoller lament:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


#9521

Because raiding (semantics) a journalist or a news organisation over the publication of pubic interest stories is a massive attack on the freedom of information.

Raiding a union (which was bullshit and found to be bullshit) was clearly also a strong arm but it doesn’t effect people’s access to information.


#9522

We get so precious over farking Journalists. Of course they are criminals, they lie, cheat and steal with about everything they publish. They should get treated like the rest of us slobs.

And what BS is that “while the law may be broken, justice is strengthened”. There is no justice if there is no Law.

You rant about “real threat to freedom of expression in this country”, as if there has ever been such a thing. In any case, the Police are doing their job and that is what keeps us secure and as this Election has shown us, that is what the majority want.


#9523

Yep, you have missed the point. Put your prejudice aside for a second and look at the two stories that sparked this (3 if you count Ben Fordhams impending investigation)


#9524

Mmm, rant? Well, it’s not me who is unable to separate general, non-specific and unsourced feelings about “journalists” with the specific instances being discussed. Which journalist lied? To whom? When? Sure, if they are criminals, charge them. But it’s a case of put up or shut up don’t you think?

And if you’re trying to say that law and justice are the same thing I’m not even sure how you can consider yourself a left-wing or progressive voice. What is the agenda of the labour movement but to push for justice over law? Or have I misunderstood you?

Yes, in a strict legal sense, there is no real “freedom of expression” in Australia – we are the only common law country that does not have some form of broadbased protection for freedom of expression. But if you believe that it is important – and I’d argue that it’s a cornerstone of democracy – then you surely have to condemn anything that limits or curtails it. Whether that be raids on union offices – or journalists.

I don’t love journalists or journalism in this country – ownership is too concentrated and diversity sorely lacking – but if you think that police raids are going to improve that state of affairs then I must have misread what you believed in.


#9525

Make no mistake - this is the national security establishment, not just in Australia, but all over the West, laying down a marker - You publish our ‘secrets’ i.e. corruption, war crimes, flagrant disregard for human rights (spying) and we will bury you.

It started with Assange, it was never going to stop with him. The military industrial complex and the intel community will do anything to maintain its global hegemony.

We have a sitting senator - good ol’ Jimmy Molan, who in a proper democracy, would be thrown in the Hague for crimes against humanity. This was the commander who led the operation on Fallujah leading to the deaths of thousands of civilians.

Whistleblowers, and journalists willing to help them get their information out into the public are the lifeblood of a properly functioning democracy, if we allow the escalation of draconian measures against both whistleblowers and journalists, we can’t call ourselves a democracy. We just can’t.

This country and the world needs more Manning’s and more Snowden’s.


#9526

The Guardian publishes an AUSTEO secret message about the shift in policy on location of the Embassy in Israel, the day before the PM announces it. No hint of pursuit by the AFP. Is the source protected?


#9527

While I do agree with that, I suspect we need less misplaced apostrophes. :wink:


#9528

Even the Left and Progressives believe in the need for Law and Order. Justice is the fair and reasonable process of Law.

I have always believe in strong central Government that runs my life, obviously in a very nice way. It gives me security, education, health-care, transport etc, and allows me to work and prosper with a safety net.

Yep, this is my fantasy and search for Utopia, but I don’t over-react to a Police Force doing its job.

Our democracy is broken, with an incompetent Government, who thinks markets forces can run the show. The AFP are mostly benign, making appointments to conduct a “raid”, hardly attack on freedom of the press.

But at the end of the day, that is what the majority of Australians want. I don’t and hence my plans to live for a better place.


#9529

LOL

Are we really a democracy? The morons who again have given us a incompetent, do-nothing Government think so, but their feeble minds were controlled by Media, yep these farking Journalists you think are central to our Democracy.

It is my experience, that the harder you try to hide the truth, it makes more certain it will come out. Not sure you have any real idea what Jim Moylan or other soldiers have done in recent wars, and I question your right to know everything. However that said, if you feel the need to know about all actions in Afghanistan, then there are many around who will tell you their version. And I will strongly argue that Journalists and others like Assange are interested only in their version, that makes the biggest impact a may not be entirely true.

I sat and listened to my Son relate his experiences in Afghanistan that have contributed to his PTSD, and it was truly horrible. You want to highlight shooting of “innocents” in war, I would want to question and highlight, why the majority of those mindless Australian agree with us being involved in Wars at all.

I would have thought that the AFP making appointments to “raid” is amusing to say the least.


#9530

So you have a right to know all this alleged illegal action. Why ?


#9531

What purpose does knowing what happened really serve or achieve? So it may frighten everyone so much there won’t ever be another war? That hasn’t worked.

My Dad was in WW2 in New Guinea, Malaysia, Borneo, Indonesia, Thailand and what is now Timor, these diggers were in places most people didn’t know about, doing things with permission from the Australian Government who would also have disowned them if captured, doing things most people would NOT want to know about. Hero’s they were absolutely but unknown. The Australian Diggers are one of the most feared jungle fighters in the world but what is that worth at the end of the day?

Most of the men chosen knew when they were hand picked, they would probably not return. Those who did return were a ■■■■■■ mess often without adequate help from both the Australian Government and Veterans Affairs because they didn’t exist. So knowing and pretending not to know, in this instance came out of the same process and all, in my view are unwinnable.


#9532

My Dad served in those same places with a frontline battalion and while he never said much, some of the stories were again just horrible. My Mum serve in the Intelligence Corp and what she saw and heard about we no better. My Son served in Afghanistan with dire result; I was the lucky one.

But as you say, Wars just seem to go on and on, and we never seem to get the futility. Many economies seem underwritten by war budgets. Imagine if USA, Russia, China and even Australia spent nothing on defence and put the money into education and health.


#9533

Seriously??


#9534

Yep, why do you need to know? I could not give a fark; me knowing is going to change nothing. And be honest, all sorts of ■■■■■ things happen in War, so until we stop War, then it will continue to happen from all sides.

I am far more concerned about the influence Journalists have on Voters. They can destroy Parties, like the Greens with their fake news and poor headlines, they can return a LNP Government by attacking the Opposition again with lies and worse. They publish Ads from arsewipes like Palmer that are just total BS.

Yet you worry more about something that happened in a War Zone a long way away.


#9535

Real “all or nothing” stuff from you there BF


#9536

I am still reeling from the grief at what happened on May 18th.

My faith is Australians is gone to hell; we are hell-bent on farking our environment and do lip service by putting solar panels on our roof, but still want a Government who will drag all the coal it can out of the ground and who has farked our river system.

We do not care that homelessness is at critical levels, and worry more about our property values than having low-cost housing or emergency houses in our neighbourhood We walk over the homeless in the street and blame those mental health for being sick. We still want to blame the victim when it comes to family violence and pay lip-service to the battle against misogyny.

I could go on, but I think I am nearly past caring.

I have good Mates who have moved to Vietnam and Thailand to escape our malaise. But I am 65, going to live in USA from September for at least 6 months, selling out my business to the Yanks and then I will probably move to Spain for the rest of my days.

Yep Simmo, all or nothing !!


#9537

You’re generalising again, the 3 stories being investigated are all things that go against the party lines that could if given more attention actually shed light on things that might help voters see the Forrest from the trees.

A complying media only fuels the environment that you actually deftest.

This was a clear attack on the resistance of that.


#9538

If only everyone had that luxury.

The gripes you have with journalism are gripes with the shot-callers at News Ltd and Fairfax, not the journos themselves.