End of round 23 - Have we improved?

Football Discussion Dustin Fletcher Hangar
41

 

 

It appears that the fitness level has improved.  I say appears.  Because after round 16 there was  a meltdown and a run of 5 or so losses that were widely attributed to the saga.     In that respect we have improved.   In terms of ladder position,  if we had won say,  3 out of those 5 we would have been a top 2 side 

2014: If we had beaten Melbourne and St Kilda, we would be top 4 

 

What has happened is the teams are performing about the same over all but the emphasis has changed 

 

2014  a better defence weaker attack

2013  a better attack,  weaker defence.  

 

Result same.

 

In a nutshell,  Loss of Crameri and Bellchambers was only just balanced by incremental improvements of Heppel,  Myers and covered by the fantastic year that Paddy Ryder put together rucking almost single handed.

 

Summary for the 2 coaches:  

Bomber a better defensive coach.  Bomber wants to get defence right as the foundation

Hird a better forward coach.   Hirdy concentrates on attack,   which is where he played all his career.

 

IMO, contracts willing, permitting  Bomber should stay on as senior assistant coach/ defence/ player development.

Or kick Neil Craig out and give the job to bomber.

I don't think that there is really any evidence that Bomber is a more defensive minded coach. Hird publicly stated when he took the job that defense was the area that needed the most work and it was the the most notable change when he took over. I think a more accurate assessment would be that the backline and team defense have continued their ongoing improvement under Bomber.

 

Maybe you are right.  

 

Lets put it this way,  at the beginning of the year the forward line had been gutted over successive years through injuries (Loss of Bellcho for almost all of 2013 was a disaster),  transfers and almost total reconstruction was needed in 2013.   How did it get to that stage?  Do you "blame" Bomber,  does the forward line schmozzle of 2013 tarnish Bombers credentials at all?   Yes it does, to some extent.   Would Hirdy have done better?  We will never know.

 

 

Well actually if you are going to keep going on about our forwardline then maybe have a go at the right person?

 

Nathan Bassett is our forwardline coach and he is the one they spend the majority of their time with on forward structure and leading patterns, not just Bomber.

 

Bomber is the head coach and oversee's everything and has a particular playing style he wants the team to play and structures in place that he wants the players to follow. It's not like the old days when the head coach taught every position and there was only the senior and assistant coaches.

 

But personally I think our forward-line has improved a fair bit towards the end of the year and I personally thought our forward line functioned quite well against Carlton, it was our midfield that let us down at the end by not marking opposition players.

 

Carlisle and Daniher are starting to work well together and adjusting to one another's playing styles and abilities. You can tell by subtle blocks they provide for one another now, almost like a screen in basketball. They rarely both fly for the same ball now and lead to better areas of the ground.

 

I thought Daniher played really well on the weekend and showed a lot of maturity in his game with smart leads. There was one particular piece of play where Colyer had the ball on the 50 and was looking to find someone inside 50, there was no one free but there was space inside the arc. Daniher recognised this and ran back hard towards goal but made sure his man didn't have any body contact with him as to allow his man to get caught ball watching, allowing him to get into the pocket and lead up towards Colyer and as a result got the ball lace out and then proceeded to check-side the ball through on the set shot. That is something Daniher wouldn't have been capable of doing at the start of the year and those are the sorts of things that will make him a great player. These are things that the likes of Nick Riewoldt and Tex Walker do so well and allows them to have more set shots on goal.

 

I have faith that Bassett will turn our forwardline around soon enough as he is by all reports, a fantastic coach and an even better bloke.

42

 

 

It appears that the fitness level has improved.  I say appears.  Because after round 16 there was  a meltdown and a run of 5 or so losses that were widely attributed to the saga.     In that respect we have improved.   In terms of ladder position,  if we had won say,  3 out of those 5 we would have been a top 2 side 

2014: If we had beaten Melbourne and St Kilda, we would be top 4 

 

What has happened is the teams are performing about the same over all but the emphasis has changed 

 

2014  a better defence weaker attack

2013  a better attack,  weaker defence.  

 

Result same.

 

In a nutshell,  Loss of Crameri and Bellchambers was only just balanced by incremental improvements of Heppel,  Myers and covered by the fantastic year that Paddy Ryder put together rucking almost single handed.

 

Summary for the 2 coaches:  

Bomber a better defensive coach.  Bomber wants to get defence right as the foundation

Hird a better forward coach.   Hirdy concentrates on attack,   which is where he played all his career.

 

IMO, contracts willing, permitting  Bomber should stay on as senior assistant coach/ defence/ player development.

Or kick Neil Craig out and give the job to bomber.

I don't think that there is really any evidence that Bomber is a more defensive minded coach. Hird publicly stated when he took the job that defense was the area that needed the most work and it was the the most notable change when he took over. I think a more accurate assessment would be that the backline and team defense have continued their ongoing improvement under Bomber.

 

Maybe you are right.  

 

Lets put it this way,  at the beginning of the year the forward line had been gutted over successive years through injuries (Loss of Bellcho for almost all of 2013 was a disaster),  transfers and almost total reconstruction was needed in 2013.   How did it get to that stage?  Do you "blame" Bomber,  does the forward line schmozzle of 2013 tarnish Bombers credentials at all?   Yes it does, to some extent.   Would Hirdy have done better?  We will never know.

 

You do realise it's 2014, right?

 

Old people.

43

Just on the fwd line...

 

from the perspective of our small  fwds/mids is has also been a very positive development year. Colyer has turned over a new leaf and looks like belongs out there on a week to week basis and Zmerret has obviously been an absolute revelation. His older brother also made good progress and i think fanta has shown a few very promising signs. there isn't much of him but he seems to move to the right spots and i loved the way he hits the front of the pack (hurls kicked the goal but fanta created the opportunity against GC).

 

Come on, we both know all those guys will be pinched for the midfield sooner rather than later...

 

Still love to see us get a guy who is completely, utterly incapable of playing midfield (but is actually good). Force their hand! Over the last however long, every time we've found a good small forward or back they've been thrown into the middle ASAP.

44

 

Just on the fwd line...

 

from the perspective of our small  fwds/mids is has also been a very positive development year. Colyer has turned over a new leaf and looks like belongs out there on a week to week basis and Zmerret has obviously been an absolute revelation. His older brother also made good progress and i think fanta has shown a few very promising signs. there isn't much of him but he seems to move to the right spots and i loved the way he hits the front of the pack (hurls kicked the goal but fanta created the opportunity against GC).

 

Come on, we both know all those guys will be pinched for the midfield sooner rather than later...

 

Still love to see us get a guy who is completely, utterly incapable of playing midfield (but is actually good). Force their hand! Over the last however long, every time we've found a good small forward or back they've been thrown into the middle ASAP.

 

 

I reckon that is a massive point you make Henry.  I watched Chappy in game 1 vs Kangas kicking 4 goals a d thought wow this bloke could kick multiples every game and end up with over 50 plus goals in the year.   But he has been playing mid-field and even in defence for most of the year, clearly exhausting him and losing his effectiveness around the goals.   Same with Winders, who is you stationed permanently in a forward pocket may play more games.   

45

 

 

Just on the fwd line...

 

from the perspective of our small  fwds/mids is has also been a very positive development year. Colyer has turned over a new leaf and looks like belongs out there on a week to week basis and Zmerret has obviously been an absolute revelation. His older brother also made good progress and i think fanta has shown a few very promising signs. there isn't much of him but he seems to move to the right spots and i loved the way he hits the front of the pack (hurls kicked the goal but fanta created the opportunity against GC).

 

Come on, we both know all those guys will be pinched for the midfield sooner rather than later...

 

Still love to see us get a guy who is completely, utterly incapable of playing midfield (but is actually good). Force their hand! Over the last however long, every time we've found a good small forward or back they've been thrown into the middle ASAP.

 

 

I reckon that is a massive point you make Henry.  I watched Chappy in game 1 vs Kangas kicking 4 goals a d thought wow this bloke could kick multiples every game and end up with over 50 plus goals in the year.   But he has been playing mid-field and even in defence for most of the year, clearly exhausting him and losing his effectiveness around the goals.   Same with Winders, who is you stationed permanently in a forward pocket may play more games.   

 

Winders was looking shot in the forwardline.
Only reason theres any attempt to talk him out of retirement is due to the fact that he ISNT playing forward.

46

2 less wins this year on the momentum of last year is dissapointing but not a disaster. 

The momentum that saw as lose 5 of our last 6? That we managed to win any games this year off that momentum is a good thing.

47

I think we’ve improved.

But so has everybody else.

Win a final, and our win / loss this year is irrelevant.

48

I think we've improved.
But so has everybody else.
Win a final, and our win / loss this year is irrelevant.

Exactly. THAT is improvement.

 

Screw North.

49

Telling statistic:  Essendon,  over 23 games this season was 4th in the AFL for inside 50s.  But 12th in goals kicked.

 

Conversion efficiency is poor . Why?   IMO over possession and time wasting in the back half

 

Theres a solution.  But it only works on a fast break out of the midfield. The forwards need to spread to pull the defenders outwards and try to give the key marking targets room to lead.   

The midfielders  then need to do one of 3 things:   Kick in front of  a player on the lead,   kick the ball over the top from outside 50  by designated player (eg.  Hurls or Myers)  or handpass to a player running past eg Zaka.

 

In other words use Norths own strategy..... the Pagans Paddock.

 

Herein lies the problem with the slow back passing switch as used in the early part of the year ,  which has given away to the "up the guts " tactic we use a lot more now.   As soon as we gain possession, the other side floods back and will outnumber our side in the paddock..  The only way to overcome this is ultra fast breaks and accurate kicking to the forwards who have already spread and are leading.  ( like Gunston / Breust )  Once the opponents have flooded back,  its almost a waste of time .

 

The most incredible exception to this was the game against the Bulldogs,  where Jake won against 1/1, 2/1 and when they had 3 up against him,  he just led out .  It was a consumate display of full forward play and marking skill,  rarely seen.

 

Lets hope he comes up for Saturday night. even 4 goals would be fantastic.   

 

First of September: Its Open season on Kangaroos.

50

I think we've improved.
But so has everybody else.
Win a final, and our win / loss this year is irrelevant.

As with everything, tis our you take it and move forward.

 

If you take it you can half ■■■■ your way through the year and win a final or two, then it's not really going to be beneficial.

take it as a foundation for bigger and better things, while needing to still work hard on all areas, then anything is possible.

 

A win this week shoulnd't detract from the fact this year like most recently was full of wasted oppotunities to give us a better chance of going deep into the finals. Wins against the Saints, melb richmond and Carlton could have seen us playing for top 4 spot instead of scraping into the finals yet again on questionable form.

A win this week doesn't or shouldn't hide the fact we still have so far to go it's not funny anymore.

51

 

2 less wins this year on the momentum of last year is dissapointing but not a disaster. 

The momentum that saw as lose 5 of our last 6? That we managed to win any games this year off that momentum is a good thing.

 

well that drop off was thanks to our good friends at AFL players association....before that we were a top 4 side easily

52


I think we've improved.
But so has everybody else.
Win a final, and our win / loss this year is irrelevant.

As with everything, tis our you take it and move forward.
If you take it you can half arse your way through the year and win a final or two, then it's not really going to be beneficial.
take it as a foundation for bigger and better things, while needing to still work hard on all areas, then anything is possible.
A win this week shoulnd't detract from the fact this year like most recently was full of wasted oppotunities to give us a better chance of going deep into the finals. Wins against the Saints, melb richmond and Carlton could have seen us playing for top 4 spot instead of scraping into the finals yet again on questionable form.
A win this week doesn't or shouldn't hide the fact we still have so far to go it's not funny anymore.

You need to make your mind up. Are we:
A.) an ordinary club who is far below where our supporters rate us. Or.
B.) a top 4 side who is underperforming.
Because you seem to chop and change when it suits you. When you've decided, let me know, and I'll be happy to discuss.
53

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54

 

I think we've improved.
But so has everybody else.
Win a final, and our win / loss this year is irrelevant.

As with everything, tis our you take it and move forward.

 

If you take it you can half ■■■■ your way through the year and win a final or two, then it's not really going to be beneficial.

take it as a foundation for bigger and better things, while needing to still work hard on all areas, then anything is possible.

 

A win this week shoulnd't detract from the fact this year like most recently was full of wasted oppotunities to give us a better chance of going deep into the finals. Wins against the Saints, melb richmond and Carlton could have seen us playing for top 4 spot instead of scraping into the finals yet again on questionable form.

A win this week doesn't or shouldn't hide the fact we still have so far to go it's not funny anymore.

 

No, that's quite pessimistic. More of a disgruntled ramble.

 

If we can put 4 quarters of hard footy together and beat North when everything is on the line then we will have come a long way from our last shot a finals.

 

Yes we still have a long way to go before we are like the Hawks/Swans who are favourites to win against anyone, no one is suggesting we deserve to win the flag based on how we have played in the H&A season.

 

A win this week means that we really deserve to be playing finals and will also show that we should have won at least a couple more matches to finish above North. It will also show the boys how important every game of the H&A season is, how important it is to make the top 4.

 

We know our best is good enough, it's a matter of consistancy, and getting it to click at the right time. Don't forget that we've blooded a few kids and pumped 20 games into Carlisle as a forward, plus we didn't have Jobe and had a few other things happening in the background. It hasn't just been about winning but improving as a club.

55

We expected more of Joe, but his potential is huge and most of us can see that next years will be huge for him.

Some good discussion in this thread.

 

I get as frustrated as the next supporter with Joe, but everytime he drops a mark or goes to ground I try to remind myself how long it took Tom Hawkins to develop.  I remember at least two seasons where he looked like a spud of the highest order, but Bomber persisted.  Now he's a flamin weapon.  Once Joe finds his sea-legs and puts on some muscle I expect he will become even more potent than Hawkins.  So much upside to Joe.

56

I think the key improvement in 2014 (over and above what you listed in the OP) is our ability to run out the year and finish winning games. The last few years we have been spent by round 17 or earlier and barely won a game late in the season. This year we have finished stronger but not fantastic yet.  Next year we need to become like Richmond this year...finish with 9 wins going into finals!  We don't want there slow start though....  I think Bombers experience developing Geelong has helped us through this improvement...that is why it is essential taht he is still with us next year to pass that experience on to Hirdy.

 

I also believe our defence now is capable of helping us win finals....that is the other big improvement.  To be where we are with the loss of Crameri in the forward line is a fantastic achievement. Ambrose could be a good replacement for Crameri but is not quite as effective at kicking goals yet, so there is still upside there yet.

Ambrose is a lot slower and less agile than Crameri.

 

I hope he becomes a star but at this stage they're not in the same league.

57

So we have an extremely young forward line and finished 7th.

So we have a 2nd once-in-a-generation on-baller who in his first season is starting 22.

So we have a Brownlow smokey.

So we have a potential Enright clone. Anyone see that kid come on against Carlton? Wow! Serious class.

We are significantly better. Training base locked and loaded. Now we destroy!

58

Our forward line needs time to develop thats it - actually - make that a new forward line coach too!! For far too long now our forward line has looked lost. At least now we have the quality in there so the future looks bright but they are at least 2 years off the the standard and experience of the rest of our team. They lack confidence simply because we usually have 3 - 4 guys in the forward 6 with less than 20 games experience ala Daniher, Carlisle (20 games in FWD line), Ambrose and Zerrett (although he was born to play footy - has real natural confidence in his ability).

But no doubt looking at these names we can get excited about something but we are genuinely 2 years off seeing these guys become consistent match winners. This aside, I have felt our forward line for the last few years has always lacked structure and could never really bind.

Think 2013;

Hurls and Crameri; At times looked lost and could not find the footy. Kommer; Great pick up but hardly kicked enough goals to be crumber.

2014;

Carlisle; Doesn't know where to run / lead unless he is playing behind his opponent (backman instinct)

Daniher; Green. Goes for everything & can get in the way and gives away silly free kicks. Can look like a gorilla at times when his on the back of his opponent but ball is still half a minute away!

Ambrose; Green. Clumsy. Not really natural but awesome athelete. Great foundation to turn him into something.

Current Crumber; ?? (Our last crumber was an odd 189cm and 95kg - now playing at the dogs - was also our highest goal kicker 2011 - 2013)

 

To get back to address this topic, I think we are a better side this year than in the last decade;

- Goals Conceded (Top 3 or 4 in comp, only conceded 50+pt defeats twice)

- Disposals (Up there with the best of them)

- Ability to get back into a game when 5 or 6 goals down (2014 vs Hawks, Cats, W.C, Blues)

 

Our defense is almost elite, our midfield is solid although we need better depth players as we have far to many B graders (like North). When they play out of their skin we can compete with the best of them but when they're down we go missing as a team. As mentioned above it's just our FWD line that needs the time but we desperately need that 50+ goal KPF and 30-40 goal crumber to be a genuine contender!!

For 2015, we will just have to settle with Daniher kicking 30 goals, Carlise; 30, Ambrose; 30, Ryder; 30, Licka to come back from retirement and Kommer to return to be our small forwards to combine for 50 goals and the Flag is OURS. GO BOMBERS!!

59

I think we’ve dropped the ball to be honest. Gone down a little from last year. Inconsistency had haunted us and dropped some shiiiiiiiiit games to deplorable teams.

60

Have we improved?  No way

 

Last year we won more games by Rd 17 and the the saga screwed us

 

The forward line is a shambles. Joe will be a star one day but his inability to hold his marks is killing us

 

He and Ambrose will need to play out of their skins this week and frankly I dont see it happening

 

I can see why our mids stuff up the forward entries each week as Joe and Paddy A hardly inspire confidence

 

Anyway lets hope our defence keeps the tin rattlers to a low score