Global Warming Thread

Trying to be a bit quicker with this reply, it's too nice a day to spend inside writing this stuff.

 

IPCC has slightly overestimated atmospheric temperature increase over the past 20 years, but over the same period they've underestimated oceanic temperature increases significantly.  Which is why we're seeing Arctic sea ice melt much faster than we expected.  Overall amount of heat increase (sum of oceanic/atmospheric) has been pretty close to as predicted.  This is not a debate about whether warming his happening, it's about the outcomes of it.

 

With regards to regional results - you can average the output of model runs regionally as well as globally.  If you run X model iterations and 80% of them who simulate increasing temperatures in southern Australia for instance, while 20% have that area remaining around the same and none which simulate cooling temperatiures, there, then you can make a prediction from that.  The output of a climate model includes all its parameter data (temp, wind, cloud cover, etc) for all of its cells - this can all be numbercrunched and analysed many different ways, from grouping blocks regionally to comparing the % of total times winds reach over a given threshold and result in hurricane conditions etc. 

 

Generally, in the climate modelling field, the way models are calibrated is that the parameters are tweaked so that the output matches as closely as possible one set of historical data, while one set is purposely ignored during model development so it can be used for verification afterwards.  So maybe you develop your model using historical cloud cover, atmospheric temperature, oceanic temperature, ice coverage etc data, then run your model and see how well it matches deep ocean current data - if it's way out, then you've stuffed up.

 

Even so, as you say, models are not perfect. Nobody argues that they are.  But in the absence of a future-predicting machine, they're the only thing we have - frankly, if models of complex situations in general were useless, nobody would rely on  them in any field, yours included. 

 

And to be honest, right now the modellers aren't interested in working out whether CO2 is causing the atmosphere to heat.  They don't need to.  We have really basic data and knowledge that effectively proves that.

 

1) we know that increaing CO2 % in air causes it to heat faster.  We have a thorough understanding of why (IR absorption spectra etc).

2) we know that we are increasing CO2 % in the air.  We know where it comes from and we have measured the increase

3) we know that the earth is heating, both though measurements at weather stations and through satellite measurements monitoring the amount of radiated CO2. 

 

Once again, the burden of proof here is on the denialists.  We have a very solid body of physics/chemistry that predicts outcome A should we perform action X, and we have an experiment (the earth) in which we are performing action X and in which we are observing outcome A  A disproof at this point is going to have to be pretty special, and 'the models aren't perfect' isn't going to cut it.

 

What the modellers are trying to do now is model the expected course, speed, amount, and regional implications of warming under different CO2 emission regimes, because we need to know this stuff, both to know precisely how quickly we have to cut emissions and how far to keep warming below dangerous levels, and to help plan for adaptation, mitigation etc measures.  And unfortunately here is where the imperfect models hurt science politically - if a model gets one thing wrong (and they all do, because they are necessarily imperfect attempts to simulate arguably the most complex system on earth) then it's forever pointed at as a proof that AGW isn't happening at all and used to discredit the entire body of climate science.  Which is of course ridiculous.

Did you really write that twice? Shiiiit.
I guess it depends where you get your graph from. Skeptical Science may have a different view to other places.
global%20warming%20ar5%20model%20b.jpg
(Foxnews - could be bias too - http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/01/28/un-climate-report-models-overestimated-global-warming/)
(http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/14371-leaked-ipcc-climate-report-shows-un-overestimated-global-warming).

Why are the starting points of all the predictions well above the observed temperature?
Are all the predictions more than 25 years old?
If so, is it only the initial increases they got wrong?
Because apart from that one initial anomaly, it would seem that this graph is showing these predictions have got the Rate of increase absolutely spot on, in fact it would put the observations at the Higher end of their predictions.
Why not show from when the predictions were made?
Where are the skeptics predictions of the temperature decreasing?
I do not trust this graph.

 

 

Where are the skeptics predictions of the temperature decreasing?

I think this shows your complete lack of understanding in the argument. No-one (I hope) is arguing that the overall trend of the global climate is not warming. "Skeptics"  argue that the warming could be part of natural cycles, and the CO2 emissions play a much less significant role than the "Alarmists" will tell you. 

 

I have no idea if that graph is accurate, its from fox news. I just used it as an example that statistics can be represented whichever way you want. At least that one has error bars. I think you are confused by the graph as well, it is mapping "change in temperature" not actual temperature. So if in year one, there is no change or a negative change, then it will plot below the predicted value. Not that hard to understand. Distrust all you like, as long as your distrust is consistent! 

 

All I was trying to say is that the IPCC predictions have been a little bit out for 20 years and are now adjusting their models. Which is fine, thats science (albeit bias science). But people walk around swearing they are gospel, putting policy on it, etc etc,  when anyone who understands modelling knows that it is just a best guess, based on what a committee wanted to see.

 

Do you think if AR5 comes out and predicts cooling that will get released? I know that I wouldn't. Thats my point. Take it or leave it. I have learnt a lot from HMs posts, even if he uses football analogies to get it through my head :)

 

 

 

Where are the skeptics predictions of the temperature decreasing?

I think this shows your complete lack of understanding in the argument. No-one (I hope) is arguing that the overall trend of the global climate is not warming. "Skeptics"  argue that the warming could be part of natural cycles, and the CO2 emissions play a much less significant role than the "Alarmists" will tell you. 

 

I have no idea if that graph is accurate, its from fox news. I just used it as an example that statistics can be represented whichever way you want. At least that one has error bars. I think you are confused by the graph as well, it is mapping "change in temperature" not actual temperature. So if in year one, there is no change or a negative change, then it will plot below the predicted value. Not that hard to understand. Distrust all you like, as long as your distrust is consistent! 

 

All I was trying to say is that the IPCC predictions have been a little bit out for 20 years and are now adjusting their models. Which is fine, thats science (albeit bias science). But people walk around swearing they are gospel, putting policy on it, etc etc,  when anyone who understands modelling knows that it is just a best guess, based on what a committee wanted to see.

 

Do you think if AR5 comes out and predicts cooling that will get released? I know that I wouldn't. Thats my point. Take it or leave it. I have learnt a lot from HMs posts, even if he uses football analogies to get it through my head :)

 

I understand that it's tracking change in temperature.

My question stands.

Why do the observations and predictions start at a different point?

And why is this graph being shown as them getting the rate of increase wrong when, if you correct what seems a very silly starting point, it shows precisely the opposite?

 

 

 

 

Where are the skeptics predictions of the temperature decreasing?

I think this shows your complete lack of understanding in the argument. No-one (I hope) is arguing that the overall trend of the global climate is not warming. "Skeptics"  argue that the warming could be part of natural cycles, and the CO2 emissions play a much less significant role than the "Alarmists" will tell you. 

 

I have no idea if that graph is accurate, its from fox news. I just used it as an example that statistics can be represented whichever way you want. At least that one has error bars. I think you are confused by the graph as well, it is mapping "change in temperature" not actual temperature. So if in year one, there is no change or a negative change, then it will plot below the predicted value. Not that hard to understand. Distrust all you like, as long as your distrust is consistent! 

 

All I was trying to say is that the IPCC predictions have been a little bit out for 20 years and are now adjusting their models. Which is fine, thats science (albeit bias science). But people walk around swearing they are gospel, putting policy on it, etc etc,  when anyone who understands modelling knows that it is just a best guess, based on what a committee wanted to see.

 

Do you think if AR5 comes out and predicts cooling that will get released? I know that I wouldn't. Thats my point. Take it or leave it. I have learnt a lot from HMs posts, even if he uses football analogies to get it through my head :)

 

I understand that it's tracking change in temperature.

My question stands.

Why do the observations and predictions start at a different point?

And why is this graph being shown as them getting the rate of increase wrong when, if you correct what seems a very silly starting point, it shows precisely the opposite?

 

I don't actually see your point. The predicted data and the observed data do start at the same point. The thick line is just a linear trend. Are you saying the trend should start at 0,0? And the x axis shows where the next models came in - AR4 etc, in response to your other question. So keep in mind when they started, and what they back calculated to use going forward. 

 

 

 

 

 

Where are the skeptics predictions of the temperature decreasing?

I think this shows your complete lack of understanding in the argument. No-one (I hope) is arguing that the overall trend of the global climate is not warming. "Skeptics"  argue that the warming could be part of natural cycles, and the CO2 emissions play a much less significant role than the "Alarmists" will tell you. 

 

I have no idea if that graph is accurate, its from fox news. I just used it as an example that statistics can be represented whichever way you want. At least that one has error bars. I think you are confused by the graph as well, it is mapping "change in temperature" not actual temperature. So if in year one, there is no change or a negative change, then it will plot below the predicted value. Not that hard to understand. Distrust all you like, as long as your distrust is consistent! 

 

All I was trying to say is that the IPCC predictions have been a little bit out for 20 years and are now adjusting their models. Which is fine, thats science (albeit bias science). But people walk around swearing they are gospel, putting policy on it, etc etc,  when anyone who understands modelling knows that it is just a best guess, based on what a committee wanted to see.

 

Do you think if AR5 comes out and predicts cooling that will get released? I know that I wouldn't. Thats my point. Take it or leave it. I have learnt a lot from HMs posts, even if he uses football analogies to get it through my head :)

 

I understand that it's tracking change in temperature.

My question stands.

Why do the observations and predictions start at a different point?

And why is this graph being shown as them getting the rate of increase wrong when, if you correct what seems a very silly starting point, it shows precisely the opposite?

 

I don't actually see your point. The predicted data and the observed data do start at the same point. The thick line is just a linear trend. Are you saying the trend should start at 0,0? And the x axis shows where the next models came in - AR4 etc, in response to your other question. So keep in mind when they started, and what they back calculated to use going forward. 

 

Oh, I see now.

The predictions do start at the same point as the first observation, which is (just over?) 0.1 degree higher than the average line due to the three years with a lower rate of increase.

 

I still don't understand why it's purporting to show a discrepency.

The average of observations rise by about 0.22 degree over the time tracked, as do the predictions.

You will notice that the predictions which are closer are models which have been revised later on with the extra detail. For example, the first model (FAR), has consistently over shot the mark with the exception of maybe 1997. The more recent models are better, but of course the test comes later on. The linear trend is just the best fit for all the data. 

Just a question Trevor (and G-Unit, and any others of like mind)
 
What would you regard as sufficient proof that human emissions are causing the current warming trend?  What standard of evidence would you require before you’re convinced that this is happening?
 
To turn the question around, here’s what I would need to see to convince me that the whole AGW thing was a big goof.
 
1) Arrhenius’s equations are disproved, and/or something new is discovered about the CO2 IR absorption spectrum that means CO2 does NOT increase the rate at which air traps heat.
or 2) it is proved that human emissions of CO2 are not responsible for the increased atmospheric CO2 levels we’re currently seeing
or 3) the earth starts to cool, significantly and at a sustained rate (I’d probably want to see at least 20 years of cooling before I accept it as a trend rather than a blip)
or 4) a robust alternative hypothesis is presented as to why the earth has experienced significant warming over the past hundred-odd years, one which also explains why human CO2 etc emissions have NOT been responsible, since according to all our current knowledge of atmospheric chemistry and basic physics, they should have been
or 5) incontrovertible evidence of a global, multiple-decades-long conspiracy between tens of thousands of politicians, scientists, etc to invent a phantom climate threat in order to … achieve something or other … is presented.  Said evidence would also need to explain 4) above or else demonstrate how global temperature measurements have been falsified world-wide over the best part of a century.  It’s also be nice if said evidence explained exactly how this staggeringly vast conspiracy managed to keep itself secret for so long when there’s fame, fortune, and glory for any courageous individual who succeeded in dumping the email archive of globalwarminghoax.org to Wikileaks or sending it in to Exxon and thus exposing the fraud to worldwide acclaim
 
So, go to it…

I'm pretty sure #5 has been "proved" already.

lol. this might take some time. I will work on this. I think you are missing my point on a couple of them, but I will answer. 

 

You didn't answer my question about what you would do if your model came out with a dropping temperature!! 

lol. this might take some time. I will work on this. I think you are missing my point on a couple of them, but I will answer. 
 
You didn't answer my question about what you would do if your model came out with a dropping temperature!!


Sorry, I missed that one.
Basically, extraordinary claims (ie, dropping temperatures in the model in the face of every understanding we have of basic atmospheric science) require extraordinary evidence. If the IPCC ran AR5 and it came out with dropping temperatures, I suspect they'd be very suspicious of it. They'd put it under much more scrutiny than they would an 'expected' warming result.
If it passed all this scrutiny without being prven to be a programming bug or something, then they'd look at the modelled data and try to work out WHY the cooling is happening. Look at the drivers of the cooling process (they do this now with warming models, but it's imperfect of course, as discussed above) to try to explain wtf is happened, and then go out into the field and see if any traces of those modelled drivers of cooling can be detected.
And in the end, if the models withstood all scrutiny and still were consistently predicting cooling, then yes, I would expect this to be what the IPCC released. Because that's the way science works. There might be a movement among some individuals in the IPCC to cover it up or who simply refused to believe the models, but you'd never get EVERYONE to sign on to a big truth-hiding conspiracy, plus the IPCC full report (not the summary) is a staggeringly huge evidence-packed completists' wet-dream document and very closely scrutinised once it gets released, and any fudging of numbers that dramatic would be picked up by someone.
Contrary to popular opinion, climate scientists do not 'barrack' for global warming! Everyone in the climate science field wishes with all their heart it wasn't happening, and you can see this every time a scientist goes on TV or radio and basically pours out their heart and begs governments to pull their collective finger out or the consequences will be unthinkable. This is WHY Tim Flannery goes a bit odd at times, imho - because he's despairing and desperate to try to get the world to act. If there was the slightest indication that the warming trend was slowing or even reversing itself, then the IPCC would jump on it, if for no other reason than to see if hidden in the drivers of this process is a possible way to prevent AGW, even if accepting the theory is false would be a step to far for them at this point. Now the usual argument for the hoax theory is 'scientists want it to be true for the grant money!!!' Which is frankly ludicrous. If they're willing to fake data for a wage, what are they doing in the university/govt/IPCC sector? Oil companies etc, lobby groups would pay a shitload more than academic rates for a prominent climate scientist who's willing to push the 'it isn't happening' or 'it's natural warming' barrow - and in a hypothetical world where it isn't happening - they'd actually be telling the truth too!
And if nothing else, the IPCC is made up of scientists (who network, and consult collegues) and human beings (who talk). If this is what the models were saying, then yes, it would get out.

Science's success in the past few centuries or so has relied on the development of scientific consensus over  techniques and theories that have proved successful at predicting and explaining the phenomena of the natural world. As the scientist and philosopher Thomas Kuhn argued, these theories have been successful because of their capacity to deal with available evidence. The consensus view allows scientists to focus on the work to be done, in the case of the environment, the policies and processes needed to slow the destructive impact of  global warming.

The scientists traditionally have been the ones to monitor and judge the efficacy of the consensus views on scientific approaches and they have been afforded this privilege because of their success. Scientific communities have also demonstrated that they will tweak and, in some crisis cases, significantly overhaul approaches that are unable to deal with anomalous readings and evidence. To my knowledge, there is no such crisis within climate science and if one should occur I accept that they are the most qualified group to deal with it. The last thing needed is for politicians and businesses to intervene.

The problem however is that powerful conflicted political and economic groups, groups with little interest in long term solutions requiring short term pain, appear to be able to capture and manipulate the various media outlets to create the impression that there is some sort of division in climate science when in fact all that exists is a discredited micro group of dissenters, some of who are in the pay of powerful groups whose goals are anything but scientific. Their purpose is to confuse and delay and enable their puppet masters to continue the practices that enrich them at the environment's cost.

It's not dissimilar to the tactics used to win elections but it appears to be only recently that such tactics have developed traction in the field of science.

Unfortunately the current government's politcal success was achieved partly as a result of climate scientist bashing as is further reinforced by the federal ministerial demotion and devaluing of science. Adam Brandt has issued a series of observations about the current fire crisis and has been criticised for speaking out of turn. I should have thought there was no better time to reinforce the cost of ignoring scientific warnings. The extraordinary result in the NSW Miranda by election, where concern over cuts to fire fighting services were a major issue, hopefully demonstrate that the punters have a better intuitive understanding of the needs of the community and the environment than their "lords and masters". Ideally however it will be the climate scientists who are able to determine policy directions rather than the "dissenters" and the media driven opinion polls.

 

4868591.jpgvergleich_mccarthy_glacier_f.jpgAg_Upsala_Glacier.jpgmelting_glacier.jpg


Fark, we are totally and utterly screwed alright! Anthropogenic Global Colourisation can't be denied now, surely? Only Columbia Glacier is fighting the good fight.

 

What I hate about these political threads is everyone seems to see things in black an... oh, carry on.

I will be back!! I have done no work today. I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked in here again, but I have. 

 

But, just to warm up, as you said you would love it:

 

http://itia.ntua.gr/getfile/850/1/documents/2008EGUClimaticPred.pdf

 

and the poster. The whole article is available for free as well. 

 

http://itia.ntua.gr/getfile/850/4/documents/2008EGU_ClimatePredictionsPos_.pdf

 

The 5 degrees was sensationalised  -  but didn't an early IPCC report suggest 3-6 degrees of warming by now if we continued on the same path of CO2? 

 

Also, just to stir the pot:

 

"We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in Cargo Cult Science." Richard Feynman, 1974. 

That's going to be rather tricky.

 

Could be.

Never know with Rupe.

Isn't the sun  also expanding??

 

certainly us humans aren't helping the issue, because of short term convenience which always wins over long term. The reason is because of status and short term monetary profits are more important than common sense and technological convenience. If something is too expensive to make, but can be built in high numbers,

 

Anyway.

 

Either way, unless scientists or engineers rule the world, then what can you do?

 

This is essentially an argument between politicians/power structures and scientists who have the brains and the statistics to know better.

So is it the expanding sun that is heating the earth up or is it emissions?

Solar intensity has not changed significantly over the last hundred years or so. It goes through a regular-ish cycle of about 11 years, but this has not had any correlation with observed temperature increases. In fact, some of the warmest years in recorded history (like now) have occurred at times of minimum solar output.
So basically, no. It ain’t the sun.

Yeah, clearly climate change can not be attributed to differences in solar intensity. But if we can mitigate the warming effects of the sun, then won't we theoretically be able to cancel the warming out, as it were?

 

In all seriousness, there has been talk for years about a 'space sunshade' for years. It's bound to be incredibly expensive, and whether it will work or not is extremely debatable (and then there's the side effects), but with the current rate of climate change action, I would not be at all surprised if this becomes our last resort.

So is it the expanding sun that is heating the earth up or is it emissions?

Worry about the sun expanding in a few billion years; that's not an issue just right now.