I’ve always seen the left / right spectrum as more circular than flat.
I.E. If you go too far to the left, or too far to the right, you end up in the same place.
Reading the thread & I'm thinking .. we are about one post away from Godwins law coming into effect, .. then there it was, & really only just beat me, as I was about to introduce the fact that debate still goes on about whether Hitler was right , or left.For me, in these situations mentioned, (dictatorships) these megalomaniacs ride into power on a left/socialist agenda, then once they have it, they turn 180o to the right & become total fascists .
It’s not that hard to get. Denocracy suits the right until they have power, then it doesn’t, & they try to undermine it.
It’s happening like that here in Aus right now. Attacks on the ABC… whistle blower laws … etc. Deceptive, cunning, right wing Govs’s abhor scrutiny.
Not entirely. Trotsky is an example of a leftist monster. I don’t think he ever did want power for himself but he did murder hundreds of thousands shifted whole rivers to deprive entire towns of water.
Leftist monsters don’t install themselves as rulers, they just self sacrifice their own morality. Sacrifice their ability to consider themselves good people to kill and commit atrocities “for the greater good of others”.
Stalin on the other hand co-opted the leftist revolution and used it’s ideals as an excuse to justify his own position of power. This is more right wing. You can use it to argue that right wing people are correct and left wing people are foolish idealists who can’t admit individuals are innately self interested. But you can’t seriously argue that the military enslavement of millions people and propaganda to main control was motivated by left wing beliefs.
and people say religion is the great divider! lol
ya left, ya left, ya left right left
Seriously the media have been promoting these KKK wannabe get togethers all week in QLD and the best they can do in Rockhampton is a measly 200, even with the racist scum''s answer to Madonna, Pauline Hanson, as the headline act. Geez the Balnarring under13s vs Rye drew more than that today. Needed Brony to helicopter in maybe.Which is exactly why the anti-groups are doing nothing but promoting the causes they oppose. Let 200 people have their rally as is their right & it would get little media coverage & would fade into obscurity quickly. Have a bunch of leftwing morons resort to their normal tactics of violence & the media are all over it like flies on shyte for days if not weeks. By violently trying to prevent a lawful rally the loonies are demonstrating the point of liberties being lost for Reclaim. This will ONLY garner more sympathy & support for Reclaim & other like groups. The far left are every single bit as dangerous & moronic as the far right.
With respect JB, you have no idea about the “far left”, and Reclaim Australia are just dumb thugs and would not understand left from right.
Violence comes from violent people, and those violently opposing the thugs are just thugs, and over my many years of protest, I have seen these “professional agitators” armed with weapons create havoc at peaceful events. I could tell you who pays for all this, but you would not believe it.
With respect BF, when it looks & quacks like a duck its a farking duck. The history of violence associated with radical left wing groups as well as regimes is undeniable. You can try to disassociate the actual realities with what you think the ideology should be BUT the facts are that left wing radicalisation is every bit as capable of violence & destruction as any other form of radicalisation. To even try to ignore this reality is just silly. Violence does come from violent people & some violent people are drawn towards far left wing groups just as they are to far right wing groups. We have seen violence at left wing rallies here & overseas for decades. Its like trying to say there is no connection between radical Islam & acts of violence or radical Christian groups & violence throughout history. Of course this doesn’t for a second mean all Muslims are violent or all left leaning loonies are violent but you can’t just pick & choose who you want to be associated with your ideology when it suits you. When an Essendon supporter gets punches someone at the game it doesn’t mean all our supporters are thugs and it also doesn’t mean that the thug suddenly stopped being an Essendon supporter. Some clubs have more thugs than others but anyone claiming their club is somehow thug free is fooling themselves.
What you miss it that those with the violent streak or violence agenda, are neither left nor right. They are there to further the aims of their Masters, who pay them well to incite the mayhem.
and people say religion is the great divider! lolya left, ya left, ya left right left
ignorance is the great divider. I’ll let you decide the part deliberate suspension of rational thought, development and learning plays regards large scale ignorance.
and people say religion is the great divider! lolya left, ya left, ya left right left
I think I already said about Jesus’ socialist message somehow being twisted to a “profit” mantra by the right the world over.
Then people actually buy into that total bastardisation … beyond comprehension really, but … that’s organized religion for you.
Co opt & manipulate whatever you have to to suit your agenda, … sell it to the vulnerable & gullible… bang, heaps of money & a Tax free status.
It’s actually hard to keep the faith in the face of all the bents.
Of course totalitarianism is a leftist construct, and millions have died because of this idea. Attributing feel-good stuff like tolerance and freedom to the left (or right) is a load of hokey.You're trying to represent an (at the minimum) 3D space on a single axis. It doesn't work. Won't work. Can't work. Too much information, too many different philosophies & facets of policy boiled down to one piece of data: left or right.
I think politics for Left Wing liberalism acts like observation does in Heisenbergs uncertainty principle. Ie- it alters the reality. It ceases to be what it could theoretically be and becomes just another expedient construction.
Reading the thread & I'm thinking .. we are about one post away from Godwins law coming into effect, .. then there it was, & really only just beat me, as I was about to introduce the fact that debate still goes on about whether Hitler was right , or left.For me, in these situations mentioned, (dictatorships) these megalomaniacs ride into power on a left/socialist agenda, then once they have it, they turn 180o to the right & become total fascists .
It’s not that hard to get. Denocracy suits the right until they have power, then it doesn’t, & they try to undermine it.
It’s happening like that here in Aus right now. Attacks on the ABC… whistle blower laws … etc. Deceptive, cunning, right wing Govs’s abhor scrutiny.
Not entirely. Trotsky is an example of a leftist monster. I don’t think he ever did want power for himself but he did murder hundreds of thousands shifted whole rivers to deprive entire towns of water.
Leftist monsters don’t install themselves as rulers, they just self sacrifice their own morality. Sacrifice their ability to consider themselves good people to kill and commit atrocities “for the greater good of others”.
Stalin on the other hand co-opted the leftist revolution and used it’s ideals as an excuse to justify his own position of power. This is more right wing. You can use it to argue that right wing people are correct and left wing people are foolish idealists who can’t admit individuals are innately self interested. But you can’t seriously argue that the military enslavement of millions people and propaganda to main control was motivated by left wing beliefs.
Interesting post. Ive never viewed Trotsky in that light before, ive always struggled to work out exactly what his position was overall. At times was at odds with Lenin, Stalin and virtually everyone else. Labelled the Soviet as both too far left AND too far right. Declared the Red Army couldnt function without the death penalty for deserters, but paradoxically thought deserters just needed "political " education. And as you said, forced famine and death on the population, was instrumental in setting up the camps that later became Stalins gulags and in the end was just another assasination in Stalins purge of rivals. A strange, strange man whose “morals” seemed so self contradictory that i wonder if its possible to claim he self sacrificed them.
People who attend demonstrations are by and large attention seeking morons. I don’t think I have ever seen one of these demonstrations actually achieve a change.
That people in Australia actually think they have something to demonstrate publicly about shows how self absorbed they are.
If you want to make a change, then get support for your ideas and run for Parliament. Otherwise just shut up and leave the rest of us alone.
People who attend demonstrations are by and large attention seeking morons. I don't think I have ever seen one of these demonstrations actually achieve a change.That people in Australia actually think they have something to demonstrate publicly about shows how self absorbed they are.
If you want to make a change, then get support for your ideas and run for Parliament. Otherwise just shut up and leave the rest of us alone.
so they demonstrate to attract attention? can you explain what people are too? I think I’m nearly understanding this people demonstrate to attract attention thing.
People who attend demonstrations are by and large attention seeking morons. I don't think I have ever seen one of these demonstrations actually achieve a change.That people in Australia actually think they have something to demonstrate publicly about shows how self absorbed they are.
If you want to make a change, then get support for your ideas and run for Parliament. Otherwise just shut up and leave the rest of us alone.
I don’t even know where to start with this. So much wrong in so few words. You must think that the privileges we enjoy today are the result of people sitting on their hands and accepting the status quo. Thank God people do demonstrate, because those in power need to be held to account for their actions.
People who attend demonstrations are by and large attention seeking morons. I don't think I have ever seen one of these demonstrations actually achieve a change.That people in Australia actually think they have something to demonstrate publicly about shows how self absorbed they are.
If you want to make a change, then get support for your ideas and run for Parliament. Otherwise just shut up and leave the rest of us alone.
so they demonstrate to attract attention? can you explain what people are too? I think I’m nearly understanding this people demonstrate to attract attention thing.
Attract attention to themselves.
Look at me. Look at me. Please, look at me.
I’m surprised by the number of people who have become famous out of these protests.
Wait, no I’m not.
2 days after conversation ends I'll troll thread because other people are ineffectual attention seekers.People who attend demonstrations are by and large attention seeking morons. I don't think I have ever seen one of these demonstrations actually achieve a change.That people in Australia actually think they have something to demonstrate publicly about shows how self absorbed they are.
If you want to make a change, then get support for your ideas and run for Parliament. Otherwise just shut up and leave the rest of us alone.
so they demonstrate to attract attention? can you explain what people are too? I think I’m nearly understanding this people demonstrate to attract attention thing.Attract attention to themselves.
Look at me. Look at me. Please, look at me.
Lenin, Stalin, Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong, Chavez etc... would never hurt a fly!since when did the left represent dictatorship? The far left is where civil rights, feminism, social equality, anti war and environmental movements where born.
The Union Movement you mean
The union movement has a lot to be proud of, but it’s pretty hard to justify the the above list as being among them.
Understandably, unions are mostly concerned about the welfare of their members. Which is entirely fair enough (that’s what unions are FOR, after all…), but at times it can mean they oppose necessary change. You can’t argue that, for instance, Arthur ‘Two Wongs don’t make a white’ Calwell was a shining beacon of hope in the civil rights and anti-racism debates. Or that the modern CFMEU has been a beacon of environmental progessivism, especially when it comes to issues like old-growth logging.
As for the anti-war movement, well, I don’t know what the actual leadership of the unions at the time said, but the ALP has solidly supported the last three foreign wars Australia has engaged in - Iraq, Afghanistan, and thirdly and most unforgivably stupidly, Iraq again.
HM, I like most of your posts but it is obvious from this post that you have not much knowledge of Australian history.
It is an egregious mistake to infer that Arthur Calwell was a racist from that remark that he is associated with. Please look up the context in which he said it in Parliament: The Menzies government was wrong in keeping out a man whose surname was Wong under the the WAP; even keeping out two men called Wong would not make that decision correct or “white” under the WAP. The wit in his remark is lost in history and is unfairly used to impugn a good man.
As for your remark:
“As for the anti-war movement, well, I don’t know what the actual leadership of the unions at the time said”
Well, I am just amazed… the unions tried to prevent Menzies shipping Australian iron to Japan in the 1930’s knowing that they would be turning that iron into weapons to kill Australians and others, Look up why Menzies was called “Pig Iron Bob”.
While you are looking up history, look up who it was that led the largest peaceful demonstrations in Australia’s history: it would be Dr Jim Cairns. The moratorium marches he led prevented more Australians from going to Viet Nam to fight in a futile war.
Also look up who stopped conscripting 18 year old Australians to go fight in wars we should never be in: that would be Gough Whitlam’s labour government as soon as they were elected in December 1972.
I could go on, but I hope you and other young people will get the message.
It is really unfortunate that even intelligent people do not know about the problems that Australians have previously suffered, and who has rectified them, and how. It is precisely this ignorance that the Tories rely on - and encourage by reducing education, media diversity etc.
Finally I am sorry that this post is probably too long for the TLDNR generation. Maybe someone can cut it up into paragraphs for them.
I've always seen the left / right spectrum as more circular than flat.I.E. If you go too far to the left, or too far to the right, you end up in the same place.
Orwell said the same thing in 1984, or was it in 1948?
Lenin, Stalin, Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong, Chavez etc... would never hurt a fly!since when did the left represent dictatorship? The far left is where civil rights, feminism, social equality, anti war and environmental movements where born.
The Union Movement you mean
The union movement has a lot to be proud of, but it’s pretty hard to justify the the above list as being among them.
Understandably, unions are mostly concerned about the welfare of their members. Which is entirely fair enough (that’s what unions are FOR, after all…), but at times it can mean they oppose necessary change. You can’t argue that, for instance, Arthur ‘Two Wongs don’t make a white’ Calwell was a shining beacon of hope in the civil rights and anti-racism debates. Or that the modern CFMEU has been a beacon of environmental progessivism, especially when it comes to issues like old-growth logging.
As for the anti-war movement, well, I don’t know what the actual leadership of the unions at the time said, but the ALP has solidly supported the last three foreign wars Australia has engaged in - Iraq, Afghanistan, and thirdly and most unforgivably stupidly, Iraq again.
HM, I like most of your posts but it is obvious from this post that you have not much knowledge of Australian history.
It is an egregious mistake to infer that Arthur Calwell was a racist from that remark that he is associated with. Please look up the context in which he said it in Parliament: The Menzies government was wrong in keeping out a man whose surname was Wong under the the WAP; even keeping out two men called Wong would not make that decision correct or “white” under the WAP. The wit in his remark is lost in history and is unfairly used to impugn a good man.
As for your remark:
“As for the anti-war movement, well, I don’t know what the actual leadership of the unions at the time said”Well, I am just amazed… the unions tried to prevent Menzies shipping Australian iron to Japan in the 1930’s knowing that they would be turning that iron into weapons to kill Australians and others, Look up why Menzies was called “Pig Iron Bob”.
While you are looking up history, look up who it was that led the largest peaceful demonstrations in Australia’s history: it would be Dr Jim Cairns. The moratorium marches he led prevented more Australians from going to Viet Nam to fight in a futile war.
Also look up who stopped conscripting 18 year old Australians to go fight in wars we should never be in: that would be Gough Whitlam’s labour government as soon as they were elected in December 1972.I could go on, but I hope you and other young people will get the message.
It is really unfortunate that even intelligent people do not know about the problems that Australians have previously suffered, and who has rectified them, and how. It is precisely this ignorance that the Tories rely on - and encourage by reducing education, media diversity etc.
Finally I am sorry that this post is probably too long for the TLDNR generation. Maybe someone can cut it up into paragraphs for them.
Not to be a smart ■■■■ here, but I don’t know who Calwell or Cairns is. Being assumeably younger than those quoted, they don’t teach Australian history in school except for Captain Cook and his first fleet, a bit of Burke and Wills, Ned Kelly and the Melbourne Olympics (my brother being 14 years younger was taught about the Sydney Olympics).
How Australia was formed, democracy, communism, world wars, etc are never covered unless in electives in years 11 or 12.
With regards to left and right politics, unions, landmark policies, important dates and people, it’s simply not taught.
This country is too worried about making the kids interested in learning instead of actually making the kids learn something.
Saying that, i’m willing to read and look up for myself some of these references so at least i’m a bit more educated. I’d hate to think how much of this information will be lost to future generations because they won’t even realise the mistakes they will make have already been made in the past and were simply overlooked or forgotten.
Why are we so scared to teach discipline or topics which will be considered boring by the next generation who can’t understand why it’s so important yet? It just seems odd to me.
That’s why all these protests about reclaiming Australia are odd to me. Most of the people there wouldn’t know enough about our history to even know what they want to change it back to or even stipulate what the important values of our country are.
*Sorry off topic slightly.
I've always seen the left / right spectrum as more circular than flat.I.E. If you go too far to the left, or too far to the right, you end up in the same place.
Orwell said the same thing in 1984, or was it in 1948?
Oh that Orwell. He always steals my words.
Lenin, Stalin, Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong, Chavez etc... would never hurt a fly!since when did the left represent dictatorship? The far left is where civil rights, feminism, social equality, anti war and environmental movements where born.
The Union Movement you mean
The union movement has a lot to be proud of, but it’s pretty hard to justify the the above list as being among them.
Understandably, unions are mostly concerned about the welfare of their members. Which is entirely fair enough (that’s what unions are FOR, after all…), but at times it can mean they oppose necessary change. You can’t argue that, for instance, Arthur ‘Two Wongs don’t make a white’ Calwell was a shining beacon of hope in the civil rights and anti-racism debates. Or that the modern CFMEU has been a beacon of environmental progessivism, especially when it comes to issues like old-growth logging.
As for the anti-war movement, well, I don’t know what the actual leadership of the unions at the time said, but the ALP has solidly supported the last three foreign wars Australia has engaged in - Iraq, Afghanistan, and thirdly and most unforgivably stupidly, Iraq again.
HM, I like most of your posts but it is obvious from this post that you have not much knowledge of Australian history.
It is an egregious mistake to infer that Arthur Calwell was a racist from that remark that he is associated with. Please look up the context in which he said it in Parliament: The Menzies government was wrong in keeping out a man whose surname was Wong under the the WAP; even keeping out two men called Wong would not make that decision correct or “white” under the WAP. The wit in his remark is lost in history and is unfairly used to impugn a good man.
As for your remark:
“As for the anti-war movement, well, I don’t know what the actual leadership of the unions at the time said”Well, I am just amazed… the unions tried to prevent Menzies shipping Australian iron to Japan in the 1930’s knowing that they would be turning that iron into weapons to kill Australians and others, Look up why Menzies was called “Pig Iron Bob”.
While you are looking up history, look up who it was that led the largest peaceful demonstrations in Australia’s history: it would be Dr Jim Cairns. The moratorium marches he led prevented more Australians from going to Viet Nam to fight in a futile war.
Also look up who stopped conscripting 18 year old Australians to go fight in wars we should never be in: that would be Gough Whitlam’s labour government as soon as they were elected in December 1972.I could go on, but I hope you and other young people will get the message.
It is really unfortunate that even intelligent people do not know about the problems that Australians have previously suffered, and who has rectified them, and how. It is precisely this ignorance that the Tories rely on - and encourage by reducing education, media diversity etc.
Finally I am sorry that this post is probably too long for the TLDNR generation. Maybe someone can cut it up into paragraphs for them.
Not to be a smart ■■■■ here, but I don’t know who Calwell or Cairns is. Being assumeably younger than those quoted, they don’t teach Australian history in school except for Captain Cook and his first fleet, a bit of Burke and Wills, Ned Kelly and the Melbourne Olympics (my brother being 14 years younger was taught about the Sydney Olympics).
How Australia was formed, democracy, communism, world wars, etc are never covered unless in electives in years 11 or 12.
With regards to left and right politics, unions, landmark policies, important dates and people, it’s simply not taught.
This country is too worried about making the kids interested in learning instead of actually making the kids learn something.
Saying that, i’m willing to read and look up for myself some of these references so at least i’m a bit more educated. I’d hate to think how much of this information will be lost to future generations because they won’t even realise the mistakes they will make have already been made in the past and were simply overlooked or forgotten.
Why are we so scared to teach discipline or topics which will be considered boring by the next generation who can’t understand why it’s so important yet? It just seems odd to me.
That’s why all these protests about reclaiming Australia are odd to me. Most of the people there wouldn’t know enough about our history to even know what they want to change it back to or even stipulate what the important values of our country are.
*Sorry off topic slightly.
This country is interested in creating a majority low paid working class that is educated to a level that assists vocational training and maximises satisfaction with little life rewards and nothing more.