Lmao
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Whatâs the joke? Do you think the attempt to install Western democracy worked in Iraq?
I think the US looked at the successful democracies in Latvia, Estonia, Poland and the like and thought it was easy to do elsewhere.
All sorts of complex reasons why it didnât work, but I can understand them thinking it was possible.
When was democracy in Iraq the stated objective of the Coalition of the Willing?
The US set up the Taliban in Afghanistan to counter Russian influence, nothing to do with democracy.
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The economic collapse of the Soviet Union delivered economic and political independence for the Baltic States, assisted by the EU and the USA, but the US did not deliver democracy to them.
(And Poland is not a shining beacon of a liberal democracy ATM).
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The U.S were not there to bring democracy.
Funnily enough though, immediately after the fall of Husseinâs government, the Iraqis did well at creating their own democracy on a community and regional level.
Once they started electing people who did not agree with the economic policies of their occupiers, the U.S ignored these elections and installed their own regional governors. These governors were told explicitly to ignore the Iraqi elections while they sold off everything they could. Elections which occurred with U.S approval were between candidates hand picked by the Bush administration, who were determined to create some kind of free market utopia.
Muqtada al-Sadr attributed his rise in popularity at this time not to any religious awakening in Iraqis but due to the community work his followers did in this period, filling the void that Iraqis had filled themselves with their makeshift democracy that was stamped on by U.S imperialism
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I agree completely, but in the mindset of the Yanks who were playing at nation building, itâs been done plenty of times before. If we took the terrible Soviet enemy and changed them to thriving democracies, why canât we do it again? Clearly hubris, but understandable hubris.
And Poland at that time hadnât devolved into the right wing thing it is now.
The goal for Eastern Europe at the time was not nation building, but rather the vanquishing of an ideology hostile to U.S interests. To that end, they were able to ride the wave of popular resentment against the existing regimes while very little nation building needed to occur as they already had robust infrastructure built. Poland had had free elections several months before the fall of the Berlin Wall.
What infrastructure was lacking in Iraq had been destroyed by a deliberately executed bombing campaign in the mid-90s, combined with crippling sanctions. Madeleine Albright famously said that the price of 500 000 starving Iraqi children was a price the U.S were comfortable paying if it meant they achieved their geopolitical goals.
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Biden made a dash to Saudi Arabia before the mid terms, wiling to be photographed with MBS, all is forgiven for ordering the butchering of a journalist.
The domino theory propped up Marcos and Suharto, intervention in Vietnam.
As for Latin America donât mention El Salvador, Chile, the Monroe Doctrine turned on its head.
Always about spheres of influence, never about democracy.
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That may have been true once but the expansion and new settlements are driven now by other motives.
Israel has a right to exist, but so do those who call themselves Palestinian. The ancient rights of the people who lived in these lands will forever be argue and even if claims are valid that time is past and all groups need to live together. PLO and Israeli Government will never agree to that.
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Yep. A quick scan of Palestinian territory on google earth shows how bad the settlement problem has got. They are everywhere. Itâs a move that makes a peaceful end almost impossible, a dealbreaker to the Palestinians and one that the Israelis will never demolish. By stealing more land the Israelis guaranteed peace talks for the coming decades would fail.
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There is no âstealingâ of land. This is a fallacy promulgated by people who have no knowledge of the history of the region.
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Iâm almost certain the people obsessed with potting Israel at every turn have never actually stepped foot in the country. I have lived there and visited many times. Itâs nothing like you think it is. It is a vibrant country full of good people who love their land and just want to live peacefully on it, but also have to contend with a daily reality that their neighbours wish them dead just for the crime of being Jews and existing.
Unfortunately many of you have swallowed the anti-Israel rhetoric whole to the point that you shrug your shoulders at the stories of children being senselessly murdered or rockets fired indiscriminately at civilian families as perfectly justifiable. You have to have a pretty dark soul to think that way. I suggest plenty of introspection.
Just yesterday:
-Twin terror attacks in Jâlem
-A 16 year old Canadian kid died on the bus attack. He was on his way to school
-A Druze who had a car crash near/in Jenin was taken to Palestinian hospital in critical condition.
Locals stormed the hospital, took him off life support and kidnapped his body. (His parents were present)
Israeli forces (and local Druze) have mobilised for a possible recovery mission.
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And despite this, Israel has offered on many occasions to hand over land or institute two states as part of a peace accord. At every turn it has been met with rejection and violence. You would think if the Palestinians actually wanted a peaceful resolution they would be more motivated to make that happen and yet only one side has shown any willingness.
Israelis used to believe that handing over land was the answer. But Palestinian rejectionism combined with what happened with Gaza (Israel handed it over only to see it empower Hamas and become a launching pad for rockets) has changed that. Hence Israelis by and large will no longer vote for leftist parties. They are a compassionate people but not a stupid people.
Peace can never be a one-sided deal. Right now there is no desire on the Palestinian side, or reason to trust that this can occur.
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Appreciate you sharing your experience and your description of life in Israel fits my expectations of what things are like.
I donât see myself as anti-Israel. I try to be honest about the flaws of both sides. This is the greyest of grey issues. Anyone who explains this in black and white supporting either side is going to be wrong. I try to look at this with empathy to both peoples, not to swing support to either side, but to understand their actions and motives.
Whatâs the debate like within Israel of how to deal with the clear and present threats they face? Are there multiple schools of thought about how to deal with the very messy dilemma they find themselves in? Or is it a consistent theme with debate only around specific details?
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I want to make it very clear I do not support Hamas. Period.
If you continue to try to push this narrative I will ask for you to be banned.
My views are informed from a Masters I recently completed about the Middle East.
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You should ask for a refund.
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I donât claim expertise in Israel Palestine relations. But from working at the edge in low diplomacy in the programs of international bodies to assist Palestine in the economic and social area, Israel is not well regarded .
Overall, efforts to develop apolitical trade, economic and social assistance have been continually frustrated by Israel actions.
Israel is not serving its own cause in that regard.
In contact with those working for the UN and other international bodies, I have been surprised at the level of cynicism towards the successive Governments of Israel in their negative or harassing approaches to assistance to civilians in Palestine.
One small example
In an international framework it was agreed that Palestine was eligible for special and differential trade concessions. The EU led in developing a mechanism. Australia followed suit. We set up an arrangement for meat trade which would involve employment for Palestine workers in meat processing, However, as our exports needed to transit through Israel, it fell through because Israel raised some technical barrier. It related to protection for Israel meatworks, nothing else.
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I hate having to respond this stupidity but it bothers me that the worldâs only Jewish State is maligned with this obvious blood libel. Itâs designed to deligitimise Israel.
The left is very good at twisting language. Apartheid evokes memories of the racial segragation in South Africa prior to the 1990âs - this was a legitimate apartheid. The two are not comparable. There is no racial segregation built into Israelâs judicial system.
Some facts:
- Israeli Arabs have the vote and enjoy full citizen rights
- Israeli Arabs serve in Israelâs legislature, the Knesset, and have done so since the first Knesset elections were held in 1949
- There is currently one Israeli Arab justice out of fifteen justices on the Israel Supreme Court
- As of 2015, approximately 8% of Israeli judges at various levels were Israeli Arabs
- Israeli Arabs serve as professors in Israeli universities
- In hospitals and clinics, Jewish and Arab doctors and nurses work together giving care equally to Jewish and Arab patients
- There are many Druze and Bedouins, who are part of the Arab population in Israel, who serve in the Israel Defense Forces
None of this would be a reality in a true apartheid, would it?
Hereâs a fun fact: If youâre an LGBT muslim, you would have better living conditions in Israel than just about anywhere in the Muslim world.
Can Israel do a better job of integrating Arabs/Palestinians? Iâm sure. But then again so could every country. Just look at how Australia treats Aboriginals.
Finally, I want you to think about how Jews/Israelis might be welcomed in any future Palestinian State. Would they be allowed to live there and receive the same rights as ordinary Palestinian citizens in the same way Israel is doing (as per the above), or would they not be welcomed at all? Fortunately, we donât have to guessâŚ
âIf we want an independent state, I will not accept any single Israeli in our territories,â Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said at [a dinner with Jewish leaders in 2010 hosted by the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace. âWe are not against the Jews. We are against the Israeli occupation.â
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You sound like Netanyahus mouthpiece, give it a rest ya bozo
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