Sorry Saga - What Hirdy Said

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

While I’m not suggesting what you’ve written is wrong, our governance failings were absolutely accepted by the club, my question has always been, was that failing just a really really helpful coincidence for the AFL’s plan to blame our governance OR were we hiring & paying for the worst managers & quality control auditors money could buy? If our management was sooooo inept, how does the CEO waltz into the biggest A-league club in the country? How does our Operations manager land a job at the AFL, how does the rodeo clown end up at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world? Again, I come back to my earlier post - how could any of the directors who were there at the time survive on our board after overseeing such governance failings? My other question is, by what standard to what measure were these governance failings judged? Most industries have standards & clear guild lines that can be used to effectively measure performance against the industry standard. Which AFL standards & regulations did the club fail, who audited those failings & what non-conformance was actually recorded? Does it all hinge on the Ziggy? Accepting we were a shambles was very much a part of the plan we were sold by the AFL. They simply couldn’t have considered blaming staff & trying to clear the players had our management been beyond reproach. So again we are left with no clear evidence of what state the club was actually in. Was there no records? If so then how the hell did the papers know within days that the players had taken AOD, Colustrum, Actovegin, pigs brain extract & the creamofsomyunguy??? 28 odd substances wasn’t it? How is that possible with no records? What did the AFL’s auditors seize from the laptops & hard drives - Plants v Zombies & some cat videos?

BTW - I’m not suggesting I believe the club would have been running like a well oiled machine, not at all, just that I don’t buy the official party line.
I’d be happy of there was an official audit on the club by an independent body that listed specific non-compliance of regulations. Until I see that I have nothing but the story we know was compromised to achieve the AFL’s goals. Its important to remember from the Jmidd that Andruska noted this plan was hatched before the investigation even started. Again maybe it was just fortunate for old Liz that our governance fitted in with their plan to tell everyone our governance was to blame.

And allowed Liz to (with little rationale) play pin-the-tail-on-the-Hird.

Ahm…aren’t I Liz?
Liz in the Sky with Diamonds?

Blitz classic. Put it in the thick tank.

Isn't riolio lizzy?

When you live in the spider’s web, you wake up with fleas.

Isn’t riolio lizzy?

I think you may have a case of threadworm? :wink:

It seems to be going around…

The whole place has gone nuttier than ever lately.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

While I’m not suggesting what you’ve written is wrong, our governance failings were absolutely accepted by the club, my question has always been, was that failing just a really really helpful coincidence for the AFL’s plan to blame our governance OR were we hiring & paying for the worst managers & quality control auditors money could buy? If our management was sooooo inept, how does the CEO waltz into the biggest A-league club in the country? How does our Operations manager land a job at the AFL, how does the rodeo clown end up at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world? Again, I come back to my earlier post - how could any of the directors who were there at the time survive on our board after overseeing such governance failings? My other question is, by what standard to what measure were these governance failings judged? Most industries have standards & clear guild lines that can be used to effectively measure performance against the industry standard. Which AFL standards & regulations did the club fail, who audited those failings & what non-conformance was actually recorded? Does it all hinge on the Ziggy? Accepting we were a shambles was very much a part of the plan we were sold by the AFL. They simply couldn’t have considered blaming staff & trying to clear the players had our management been beyond reproach. So again we are left with no clear evidence of what state the club was actually in. Was there no records? If so then how the hell did the papers know within days that the players had taken AOD, Colustrum, Actovegin, pigs brain extract & the creamofsomyunguy??? 28 odd substances wasn’t it? How is that possible with no records? What did the AFL’s auditors seize from the laptops & hard drives - Plants v Zombies & some cat videos?

BTW - I’m not suggesting I believe the club would have been running like a well oiled machine, not at all, just that I don’t buy the official party line.
I’d be happy of there was an official audit on the club by an independent body that listed specific non-compliance of regulations. Until I see that I have nothing but the story we know was compromised to achieve the AFL’s goals. Its important to remember from the Jmidd that Andruska noted this plan was hatched before the investigation even started. Again maybe it was just fortunate for old Liz that our governance fitted in with their plan to tell everyone our governance was to blame.

And allowed Liz to (with little rationale) play pin-the-tail-on-the-Hird.

Ahm…aren’t I Liz?
Liz in the Sky with Diamonds?

?

Never mind, mate, I have no idea what prompted me to write that.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

While I’m not suggesting what you’ve written is wrong, our governance failings were absolutely accepted by the club, my question has always been, was that failing just a really really helpful coincidence for the AFL’s plan to blame our governance OR were we hiring & paying for the worst managers & quality control auditors money could buy? If our management was sooooo inept, how does the CEO waltz into the biggest A-league club in the country? How does our Operations manager land a job at the AFL, how does the rodeo clown end up at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world? Again, I come back to my earlier post - how could any of the directors who were there at the time survive on our board after overseeing such governance failings? My other question is, by what standard to what measure were these governance failings judged? Most industries have standards & clear guild lines that can be used to effectively measure performance against the industry standard. Which AFL standards & regulations did the club fail, who audited those failings & what non-conformance was actually recorded? Does it all hinge on the Ziggy? Accepting we were a shambles was very much a part of the plan we were sold by the AFL. They simply couldn’t have considered blaming staff & trying to clear the players had our management been beyond reproach. So again we are left with no clear evidence of what state the club was actually in. Was there no records? If so then how the hell did the papers know within days that the players had taken AOD, Colustrum, Actovegin, pigs brain extract & the creamofsomyunguy??? 28 odd substances wasn’t it? How is that possible with no records? What did the AFL’s auditors seize from the laptops & hard drives - Plants v Zombies & some cat videos?

BTW - I’m not suggesting I believe the club would have been running like a well oiled machine, not at all, just that I don’t buy the official party line.
I’d be happy of there was an official audit on the club by an independent body that listed specific non-compliance of regulations. Until I see that I have nothing but the story we know was compromised to achieve the AFL’s goals. Its important to remember from the Jmidd that Andruska noted this plan was hatched before the investigation even started. Again maybe it was just fortunate for old Liz that our governance fitted in with their plan to tell everyone our governance was to blame.

And allowed Liz to (with little rationale) play pin-the-tail-on-the-Hird.

Ahm…aren’t I Liz?
Liz in the Sky with Diamonds?

?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

While I’m not suggesting what you’ve written is wrong, our governance failings were absolutely accepted by the club, my question has always been, was that failing just a really really helpful coincidence for the AFL’s plan to blame our governance OR were we hiring & paying for the worst managers & quality control auditors money could buy? If our management was sooooo inept, how does the CEO waltz into the biggest A-league club in the country? How does our Operations manager land a job at the AFL, how does the rodeo clown end up at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world? Again, I come back to my earlier post - how could any of the directors who were there at the time survive on our board after overseeing such governance failings? My other question is, by what standard to what measure were these governance failings judged? Most industries have standards & clear guild lines that can be used to effectively measure performance against the industry standard. Which AFL standards & regulations did the club fail, who audited those failings & what non-conformance was actually recorded? Does it all hinge on the Ziggy? Accepting we were a shambles was very much a part of the plan we were sold by the AFL. They simply couldn’t have considered blaming staff & trying to clear the players had our management been beyond reproach. So again we are left with no clear evidence of what state the club was actually in. Was there no records? If so then how the hell did the papers know within days that the players had taken AOD, Colustrum, Actovegin, pigs brain extract & the creamofsomyunguy??? 28 odd substances wasn’t it? How is that possible with no records? What did the AFL’s auditors seize from the laptops & hard drives - Plants v Zombies & some cat videos?

BTW - I’m not suggesting I believe the club would have been running like a well oiled machine, not at all, just that I don’t buy the official party line.
I’d be happy of there was an official audit on the club by an independent body that listed specific non-compliance of regulations. Until I see that I have nothing but the story we know was compromised to achieve the AFL’s goals. Its important to remember from the Jmidd that Andruska noted this plan was hatched before the investigation even started. Again maybe it was just fortunate for old Liz that our governance fitted in with their plan to tell everyone our governance was to blame.

And allowed Liz to (with little rationale) play pin-the-tail-on-the-Hird.

Ahm…aren’t I Liz?
Liz in the Sky with Diamonds?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

While I’m not suggesting what you’ve written is wrong, our governance failings were absolutely accepted by the club, my question has always been, was that failing just a really really helpful coincidence for the AFL’s plan to blame our governance OR were we hiring & paying for the worst managers & quality control auditors money could buy? If our management was sooooo inept, how does the CEO waltz into the biggest A-league club in the country? How does our Operations manager land a job at the AFL, how does the rodeo clown end up at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world? Again, I come back to my earlier post - how could any of the directors who were there at the time survive on our board after overseeing such governance failings? My other question is, by what standard to what measure were these governance failings judged? Most industries have standards & clear guild lines that can be used to effectively measure performance against the industry standard. Which AFL standards & regulations did the club fail, who audited those failings & what non-conformance was actually recorded? Does it all hinge on the Ziggy? Accepting we were a shambles was very much a part of the plan we were sold by the AFL. They simply couldn’t have considered blaming staff & trying to clear the players had our management been beyond reproach. So again we are left with no clear evidence of what state the club was actually in. Was there no records? If so then how the hell did the papers know within days that the players had taken AOD, Colustrum, Actovegin, pigs brain extract & the creamofsomyunguy??? 28 odd substances wasn’t it? How is that possible with no records? What did the AFL’s auditors seize from the laptops & hard drives - Plants v Zombies & some cat videos?

BTW - I’m not suggesting I believe the club would have been running like a well oiled machine, not at all, just that I don’t buy the official party line.
I’d be happy of there was an official audit on the club by an independent body that listed specific non-compliance of regulations. Until I see that I have nothing but the story we know was compromised to achieve the AFL’s goals. Its important to remember from the Jmidd that Andruska noted this plan was hatched before the investigation even started. Again maybe it was just fortunate for old Liz that our governance fitted in with their plan to tell everyone our governance was to blame.

And allowed Liz to (with little rationale) play pin-the-tail-on-the-Hird.

Ben might take a leaf out of that SKY doctor who is too ill to attend the UK inquiry. The UK Committee said it was prepared to take written evidence or reschedule. Stabby has suggested that questions on notice might be a feature of Estimates.

Always a chance that Dr Freeman would miss the hearing - After all, interviews take place with no oath.

The current UK Parliamentary Inquiry into doping is being conducted by the House of Commons Select Committee on Culture Media and Sport. Its mandate is not limited to Olympic sports.

Yes - But it will always investigate Olympic sports before Non-Olympic Sports - Anyway you can continue to convince yourself the British System and the Australian System are the same.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

While I’m not suggesting what you’ve written is wrong, our governance failings were absolutely accepted by the club, my question has always been, was that failing just a really really helpful coincidence for the AFL’s plan to blame our governance OR were we hiring & paying for the worst managers & quality control auditors money could buy? If our management was sooooo inept, how does the CEO waltz into the biggest A-league club in the country? How does our Operations manager land a job at the AFL, how does the rodeo clown end up at one of the biggest accounting firms in the world? Again, I come back to my earlier post - how could any of the directors who were there at the time survive on our board after overseeing such governance failings? My other question is, by what standard to what measure were these governance failings judged? Most industries have standards & clear guild lines that can be used to effectively measure performance against the industry standard. Which AFL standards & regulations did the club fail, who audited those failings & what non-conformance was actually recorded? Does it all hinge on the Ziggy? Accepting we were a shambles was very much a part of the plan we were sold by the AFL. They simply couldn’t have considered blaming staff & trying to clear the players had our management been beyond reproach. So again we are left with no clear evidence of what state the club was actually in. Was there no records? If so then how the hell did the papers know within days that the players had taken AOD, Colustrum, Actovegin, pigs brain extract & the creamofsomyunguy??? 28 odd substances wasn’t it? How is that possible with no records? What did the AFL’s auditors seize from the laptops & hard drives - Plants v Zombies & some cat videos?

BTW - I’m not suggesting I believe the club would have been running like a well oiled machine, not at all, just that I don’t buy the official party line.
I’d be happy of there was an official audit on the club by an independent body that listed specific non-compliance of regulations. Until I see that I have nothing but the story we know was compromised to achieve the AFL’s goals. Its important to remember from the Jmidd that Andruska noted this plan was hatched before the investigation even started. Again maybe it was just fortunate for old Liz that our governance fitted in with their plan to tell everyone our governance was to blame.

It is all James Hird 's fault. While he wasn't part of the relevant organisational structure, he should have oversighted every supplement injection and everything that came through the door at the EFC, as well as offsite stuff. Not enough for him to specify conditions. His coaching responsibilities should have left him with enough time to do that. And, he should have tried harder to get Dank and Robinson sacked. Not the responsibility of the CEO or others. Could not be the fault of anyone else with a direct line of responsibility

Thanks for that insight Damo.

Sad thing is this post is equally valid with sarcastica font as without.

Di Natale seems to think it important. He is very active today in Estimates on health issues. I would not be surprised to see him taking a role when Estimates gets to sport, including ASADA.


And he is also the Green’s sports spokesman. I’m sure others have contacted senators with questions for McD - I just popped a couple of reminders to DiNatale, Back and Leyonhjelm

I understand DiNatale won’t be there tonight, it will be a different Greens rep. The questions put in notice will be the important bit

.

Are you thinking about live posting tonight Heffsgirl?

heffsgirl, wearing the number 26 jumper tonight?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

If you’re referring to my description of the club, I know It because it was accepted by pretty much everyone that governance at the club was less than ideal. I think it was Bomber Thompson who described it as ‘a shambles’.

If you’re referring to my general comment, I know that from experience.

Someone could tell that US Committee how Russia bought WADA, as illustrated in that WADA Executive Committee report of 11 May 2913, picked up by BWAS in an earlier post.

And 3o0K Euro was all it took.

Clearly, the US Govt are not getting value for money given they contributed US 2M.

No wonder the US is upset.

It is all James Hird 's fault. While he wasn't part of the relevant organisational structure, he should have oversighted every supplement injection and everything that came through the door at the EFC, as well as offsite stuff. Not enough for him to specify conditions. His coaching responsibilities should have left him with enough time to do that. And, he should have tried harder to get Dank and Robinson sacked. Not the responsibility of the CEO or others. Could not be the fault of anyone else with a direct line of responsibility

Thanks for that insight Damo.

Think he was being sarcastic…

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/allan-hird-rita-panahi-finally-gets-it-about-the-afl-now-she-needs-to-do-the-same-with-asada/news-story/8fa82d0d2a783099fda49fe8ad681954
Allan Hird: Focus needs to be on ASADA as well

Allan Hird, Herald Sun
18 minutes ago

THE penny has finally dropped for Rita Panahi about the AFL.

Her article reveals she now knows the AFL attempted to manipulate the process in relation to the Essendon supplements saga.

Welcome to the party Ms Panahi.

Those of us who have read Chip Le Grand’s excellent book, the Straight Dope, Michael Warner’s reporting in the Herald Sun and the transcripts of the Federal Court case Hird vs. ASADA have known since 2013 that the AFL has never been interested in the truth.

Indeed, it has actively sought to hide the truth to protect its office bearers.

But as the saying goes better late than never.

All Ms Panahi has to do now, on her self-realisation quest, is to have the same revelation about ASADA under its soon to be departing CEO Ben McDevitt.

She runs the line that Mr McDevitt is some kind of white knight on his charger trying to clean up sport. Well the facts show he is quite different.

The facts show outgoing ASADA chief executive Ben McDevitt is anything but a white knight, says Allan Hird. Picture: Ray Strange
Let me go through some lines she uses to pump up Mr McDevitt’s tyres. Ms Panahi quotes Mr McDevitt as saying: “we know that hundreds, if not thousands, of injections were given to Essendon players during the course of 2012”.

Think about that for a minute. If Mr McDevitt knew the number of injections, why didn’t he give an exact figure? It’s either hundreds or it’s thousands.

Either he knew it’s hundreds or he knew it’s thousands. It can’t be both.

Perhaps Mr McDevitt is confusing the number of injections with the sweet coloured sprinkles mums and dads use to make fairy bread.

Ms Panahi relies on the decision of the Court of Arbitration for Sport that found the players had taken Thymosin Beta 4, a substance banned under the WADA code to defend Mr McDevitt.

But how did the players get to be tried by CAS? Simply because Mr McDevitt was after convictions not justice.

The CAS decision could never have been made if Australian legal principles had applied.

That is the precise reason why Mr McDevitt did not challenge the decision of the AFL Tribunal comprising two Australian Judges and an eminent barrister that found the players had no case to answer.

The tribunal used Australian legal principles and Australian rules of evidence when it cleared the players of any wrongdoing.

ASADA had the right under the WADA architecture to appeal the AFL Tribunal decision in Australia. But Mr McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence.

That’s right, there was no evidence the players had taken TB4.

Ben McDevitt knew that he would lose because the case he ran before the tribunal had been thrown out because of lack of evidence. Picture: Ray Strange
Instead, ASADA under Mr McDevitt’s watch gave WADA $US100,000, use of ASADA’s lawyers and the access to ASADA’s failed tribunal case to have the players tried again before CAS.

He knew Australian legal principles and rules of evidence would not apply and he knew the case before CAS would be a fresh trial.

So here we have a highly paid Australian public servant funding the trial of 34 Australians in a foreign court knowing they would not receive Australian justice.

Furthermore, under Australian law, there is a simple but powerful principle, double jeopardy, and this means you can’t be tried for the same crime twice.

But the Essendon players were, and Mr McDevitt engineered it that way.

Ms Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true the players did not tell about their injections.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Many did, and in any case, at the time in 2012, there was no requirement for them to do so. That statement by Mr McDevitt, besides being untrue, was an irrelevant distraction.

The players were charged with taking TB4. Yet there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that TB4 was ever mentioned in any document or conversation to the players.

In fact, the players first heard of TB4 when they were charged with taking it. So, what is the point in Mr McDevitt trying to infer the players had something to hide?

Mr McDevitt has history in making things up to justify his case. In his testimony to senate estimates on March 3, 2016, he said the players did not do any research into the substances they were given. He said all they had to do was look up the website.

Well, many people have done so, including some of the players, and the WADA banned list for 2012 does not list TB4.

So, what would be the point of the players going to the website? The substance they were charged with taking was not listed.

All of this of course calls into question Ms Panahi’s attempt to portray Mr McDevitt as some sort of white knight trying to clean up sport. More likely his aim throughout was convictions, not justice.

My advice to Ms Panahi would be: before jumping in to champion someone, do your research. The corollary is also before trying to impugn the Essendon players’ reputations, do your research.

Allan Hird is a former Essendon player and father of Essendon great James Hird.

Rita Panahi accepts Mr McDevitt’s line that the players did not reveal the injections they had as an indication of their guilt. It is simply not true.

Is she for real? Has it ever occurred to her that maybe the players genuinely didn’t know what they were injected with.

She has a peanut for a brain.

I am so pleased A.Hird has stepped in. He writes very clearly and succinctly. He is a great figurehead for this.

the “we don’t know what we took” line was adopted by the club at the insistence of the AFL spin doctor Ms Lukin…the players know what they had it was what they agreed to have …do they know it beyond any doubt …no …unless they had every substance checked before it was injected into them…they trusted they were given what they were told they were given…and tests would indicate that to be the case. So this we don’t know what substances they were is crap…they were charged with TB4 a single substance as no evidence of anything else was ever found …no TB4 or referrals to it were ever found either but I guess they had to have something to charge them with seeing as how both ASADA & AFL CEO’s put such stock in the “fact” that Essendon were drug cheats…well they had to be didn’t they?? Hird & the executive wanted a better supplements program…Dank was at the club do the math…as far as ASADA were concerned 2 plus 2 did equal five …it had to because they couldn’t prosecute if the answer was 4 …If I were the club I’d be coming clean about the pressure to say they didn’t know what the players had because I would hazard a guess they did.

The big brass at Essendon are hardly likely to say anything now after all this time, they've spent denying whatever it was that was taken???

they wont even try to clear Hird’s name by telling all who will listen about the reporting structures & job descriptions at the club. No wonder the poor guy ended up in hospital …why are people so cowardly & weak? …

Helen, your question is actually your answer.

This is a big talking point. My guess is that whilst there may have been documented job descriptions and a reporting structure the place was pretty shambolic.

As in many organisations, what’s supposed to happen looks very different to what actually happens.

And you know, how ?, classic dog whistle denigration.

Di Natale seems to think it important. He is very active today in Estimates on health issues. I would not be surprised to see him taking a role when Estimates gets to sport, including ASADA.


And he is also the Green’s sports spokesman. I’m sure others have contacted senators with questions for McD - I just popped a couple of reminders to DiNatale, Back and Leyonhjelm

I understand DiNatale won’t be there tonight, it will be a different Greens rep. The questions put in notice will be the important bit.

Di Natale seems to think it important. He is very active today in Estimates on health issues. I would not be surprised to see him taking a role when Estimates gets to sport, including ASADA.
And he is also the Green’s sports spokesman. I’m sure others have contacted senators with questions for McD - I just popped a couple of reminders to DiNatale, Back and Leyonhjelm