I'm old enough too!I'm old enough to remember when players were omitted because of poor form. Now everyone gets a "rest".
Spin-doctors thrive.
(Colyer & DVU were omitted last week)
(Colyer & DVU were omitted last week)
and a stick figure drawing of a full back.
HAH!
They both should play back IMO. , but I don’t like Hurley either end of the ground.
I think it’s the fact he’s getting paid an f load for a Lewis Roberts Thompson output
JD seemed to have more freedom last year to lead. Obviously he is competing with better quality backs now, but other clubs had to contend with Crameri, Bellchambers/Ryder and Hurls (who at least made a contest) - Joe often took the 3rd or 4th best defender.
Up until now, its only been Carlisle up forward who has not yet made an impact or taken any heat off Joe. I don't think he needs a rest, he just needs others to stand up and make a contest and share some of the defensive pressure. Hopefully, with Belly and Ryder in the team and sharing forward duties, Carlisle and JD can get some breathing space by not being the sole focal points.
So the 35 possesions, 17 marks, 2.4 and 3 goal assists he got in the first two games didn't take any pressure or attention off JD? Good to know the standard required to do so! And not sure how he could be expected to take pressure off against Carlton and Freo given the two of them were sharing the ruck and forward duties.
Last week was only the third game where they've both played forward at the same time.
I’m all for backing Carlisle in, and it’s too early to turn on him for sure.
But he needs to be commanding the best defender away from Joe. And he’s not doing that at the moment, which is somewhat concerning.
We've argued this before, but I do think you are ignoring Steinberg and Ambrose from those calculations. Steinberg could have played 3rd tall defender, letting one of Hooker/Hurley forward, and Ambrose would have given a lot more variety in the forward line when we suffered all the tall injuries. We also planned to rotate Goddard/Watson through the forward line for some more height.Our *total* cover (ie, all tall guys outside the 22 of any description) for Carlisle, Hooker, Hurley, Joe Dan, and both the rucks is Thurlow, Pears and a stick figure drawing of a full back.I assume you're taking the proverbial.Jerrett at 19, Kersten, Rowe, Talia or Paine at 30. List would look a lot more balanced.
Even if you believe any of those would make a difference — and the only one I'd be happy to consider is Kersten, and he's completely unproven (Talia is decent but more a defender so doesn't "balance" anything) —
Ie, 2 injuries and we're pushing guys way out of position, 3 and we're in Carlton territory, 4 and it's little league time.
You may not recall but way back in round 4 we had to do this - it did not work.
We are unbalanced, I think with the flexibility we have in quite a few of them we can move guys around freely more or less, but we then still then need cover for those guys we've moved - it's not a rabbit out of a hat situation.
( ie Hurley is our ~4th in line tall forward, Talia could come in for him and do better than Pears or Gregory - vice versa with Carlisle)
Are people are happy with that? Am I talking gibberish?
Yes, this came unstuck in Round 4. But a lot of that was the extent of the injuries. Could any team other than Hawthorn lose three first choice talls, a first choice medium, and a first back up tall, and one of the mediums who was meant to rotate through the F50 and not be decimated? I think to compare us to Carlton injury free when we had those seven guys out is totally unfair. And it could have been mitigated if one of Steinberg/Thurlow had been promoted.
Say we put Steinberg on Pav (any more unfair than when we put Pears there years ago?), had Hurley forward, and had one of Goddard/Ambrose fit to help Hurley plus one of Carlisle/JD resting forward, and the structure looks a lot better. But having seven injuries plus a bad decision by the coaching panel meant this didn't happen. Simply promoting Steinberg has the same effect as Talia. Steinberg has been on guys like Hogan and pure talls in the VFL with reasonable success, so I think he could have given it a shot.
But I contend nobody but Hawthorn could have covered missing those seven guys.
I will agree having both Steinberg AND Thurlow on the rookie list was a mistake.
Your right our reaction should not be given the weight of saying what was a good/bad decision. Or any weight at all. But your suggested change is pretty ridiculous IMO. Although it is possible the club rated Jerrett higher but thought he would be still around 12 picks later, the odds are if they take a tall it is for Jerrett. You can't have both. And I'm not convinced those talls you mentioned would have added a great deal right now. Certainly not as much as Jerret. And the list management could hardly have foreseen Crameri deciding to leave or our draft penalties.Like it does every year, no matter what we've actually done & how well?I assume you're taking the proverbial.Jerrett at 19, Kersten, Rowe, Talia or Paine at 30. List would look a lot more balanced.
Even if you believe any of those would make a difference — and the only one I'd be happy to consider is Kersten, and he's completely unproven (Talia is decent but more a defender so doesn't "balance" anything) — can you imagine what this place would have looked like when we overlooked Kav?
GAAAAH SACK DODORO roughly sums it up.
Do you care? We loved Still, we hated passing on Garlett, we hated when we took Carlisle - we know nothing.
NB: Not having a go at Kav at all. I'm reasonably confident he'll be something of a player, I'm just saying what type of player could have been differently that year and a few others.
Our *total* cover (ie, all tall guys outside the 22 of any description) for Carlisle, Hooker, Hurley, Joe Dan, and both the rucks is Thurlow, Pears and a stick figure drawing of a full back.I assume you're taking the proverbial.Jerrett at 19, Kersten, Rowe, Talia or Paine at 30. List would look a lot more balanced.
Even if you believe any of those would make a difference — and the only one I'd be happy to consider is Kersten, and he's completely unproven (Talia is decent but more a defender so doesn't "balance" anything) —
Ie, 2 injuries and we're pushing guys way out of position, 3 and we're in Carlton territory, 4 and it's little league time.
You may not recall but way back in round 4 we had to do this - it did not work.
We are unbalanced, I think with the flexibility we have in quite a few of them we can move guys around freely more or less, but we then still then need cover for those guys we've moved - it's not a rabbit out of a hat situation.
( ie Hurley is our ~4th in line tall forward, Talia could come in for him and do better than Pears or Gregory - vice versa with Carlisle)
Are people are happy with that? Am I talking gibberish?Like it does every year, no matter what we've actually done & how well?can you imagine what this place would have looked like when we overlooked Kav?
GAAAAH SACK DODORO roughly sums it up.
Do you care? We loved Still, we hated passing on Garlett, we hated when we took Carlisle - we know nothing.
NB: Not having a go at Kav at all. I'm reasonably confident he'll be something of a player, I'm just saying what type of player could have been differently that year and a few others.
Sorry about the quoting everything, but on the phone and it's too hard to cherry pick the quotes.
I thought you were arguing "too many key position defenders, not enough key position forwards" as the balance issue. You won't get any arguments from me on "not enough talls".
As for Kav. Of course we don't know, and I wasn't commenting on whether it would have been right or wrong, just that it would have been a meltdown.
Of course JBomber wouldn't have been happy if we were overlooking mids for *more* speculative key position players.
Can we graft Carlisle’s hands onto Steinberg, and see how that goes?
Onto Ambrose would be a good start.Can we graft Carlisle's hands onto Steinberg, and see how that goes?
JD seemed to have more freedom last year to lead. Obviously he is competing with better quality backs now, but other clubs had to contend with Crameri, Bellchambers/Ryder and Hurls (who at least made a contest) - Joe often took the 3rd or 4th best defender.
Up until now, its only been Carlisle up forward who has not yet made an impact or taken any heat off Joe. I don't think he needs a rest, he just needs others to stand up and make a contest and share some of the defensive pressure. Hopefully, with Belly and Ryder in the team and sharing forward duties, Carlisle and JD can get some breathing space by not being the sole focal points.So the 35 possesions, 17 marks, 2.4 and 3 goal assists he got in the first two games didn't take any pressure or attention off JD? Good to know the standard required to do so! And not sure how he could be expected to take pressure off against Carlton and Freo given the two of them were sharing the ruck and forward duties.
Last week was only the third game where they've both played forward at the same time.
In fact it didn't. The expectation was that Carlisle would take the number one defender which hasn't always been the case. Unfortunately JD has more often got the number one defender.
The expectation was that whoever didn’t have the #1 defender would be a dominant force in a match. We can’t control which defenders the opposition sends where. We just expected solid output from Carlisle if he didn’t have the #1,such that opposition coaches would consider the switch, and if they didn’t Carlisle could win the game for us.
After 2 games as a KPF he was doing that well enough.
Getting a bit out of hand. Carlisle manager piping up now.
Carlisle really really doesn’t want to play fwd
Bomber won’t buckle and switch Hurls again it seems, going to be interesting what happens.
Getting a bit out of hand. Carlisle manager piping up now.
Carlisle really really doesn't want to play fwd
Bomber won't buckle and switch Hurls again it seems, going to be interesting what happens.
What a joke. As much as I hate to say it would this happen at Collingwood? Or most other clubs?
I'm all for backing Carlisle in, and it's too early to turn on him for sure.
But he needs to be commanding the best defender away from Joe. And he's not doing that at the moment, which is somewhat concerning.
That's not quite true. Neither of them (Joe or Jake) "demands" a defender. They get what comes with the position they play. Players who are as yet no threat to anyone don't "demand" the guns.
Link/source?Getting a bit out of hand. Carlisle manager piping up now.
Carlisle really really doesn't want to play fwd
Bomber won't buckle and switch Hurls again it seems, going to be interesting what happens.
Link/source?Getting a bit out of hand. Carlisle manager piping up now.
Carlisle really really doesn't want to play fwd
Bomber won't buckle and switch Hurls again it seems, going to be interesting what happens.
Not sure he (manager) has spoken publicly, there's an article in todays HUN claiming a rift and that Carlisle met with his manager last night.
STRUGGLING Essendon forward Jake Carlisle is at odds with coach Mark Thompson who has refused to guarantee Carlisle will play on Anzac Day.
Carlisle‘s attitude on the ground is a concern for Thompson who twice this week flagged Carlisle‘s position could be in jeopardy.
Former backman Carlisle is not happy playing as a forward and it‘s understood at one stage during the St Kilda game on Saturday night he had a robust discussion with Thompson on the telephone from the bench.
Thompson spoke with Carlisle at three-quarter time and the body language from the coach indicated he was not happy.
Clearly Carlisle is frustrated about his position and Thompson is frustrated with Carlisle‘s output as a key forward, both offensively and defensively.
Carlisle‘s manager Anthony McConville last night had a meeting with his player, prompted by Thompson‘s comments that Carlisle could be omitted for the Collingwood game.
Fox Footy commentator Dermott Brereton labelled Carlisle a “sook†after his performance on Saturday.
“You can‘t sook about the fact you‘ve gone forward,†Brereton said.
“I actually think you‘re playing out of position … but you‘re playing in the team, don‘t sook it up if it doesn‘t go your way.â€
Carlisle‘s transformation from All-Australian contender in June 2013 to failing forward after five rounds in 2014 is one of the reasons why Essendon‘s form has fluctuated.
Carlisle, 22, has gone goalless three times and has also been asked to handle the ruck duties while Paddy Ryder was injured.
Thompson yesterday said Carlisle did not work hard enough on the ground.
“He‘s in danger (of getting dropped) because he‘s not been in great form. And that‘s a bit of a shame because he‘s got lots of potential and a lot of ability,†Thompson said.
“He‘s been asked to play in the ruck, too, which is not ideal for someone who‘s probably never played in the ruck.â€
Thompson said pre-season his “gonads were on the line†with the Carlisle-Michael Hurley switch, and he said yesterday he intended to continue with Hurley as a defender and Carlisle as forward.
Asked if the experiment had backfired, Thompson said: “I don‘t think it would matter where Jakey played at the moment.
“He‘s not out of the side at the moment, he‘s still in, so if he really wants to play he‘ll show he wants to play.â€
Ruckman Tom Bellchambers and best-and-fairest winner Brendon Goddard could return for Friday‘s blockbuster against Collingwood.
If Bellchambers, who got through his first 2014 hit-out in the VFL last week, wins selection it will pile even more pressure on Carlisle.
The Bombers will welcome back goalsneak Jason Winderlich.
Under fire for his comments about his players‘ recovery after the Fremantle debacle, Thompson yesterday said allegations he had distanced himself from the players were “outrageousâ€.
He noted that Gary Ablett would complete extra sessions at midnight following matches during their Geelong days.
“So that‘s what they‘re expected to do, I didn‘t (know) what our boys did last week and I won‘t know what they do this week, and I don‘t think anyone really knows,†Thompson said.
“They have to get themselves in a state ready to play, no matter what the outlook is. If you‘re not feeling great you‘ve got the responsibility to get yourself right.â€
While clearly frustrated with Carlisle, Thompson labelled his junior forward partner Joe Daniher a professional.
“He‘s a bit of a freak really in how he recovers,†Thompson said.
Don‘t know if there is any truth to that article or not.
I saw Buckets playing forward first hand in the pre-season and I really didn‘t like what I saw.
He doesn‘t lead at all! He appears to be a reactive forward and just asks calls for the ball to be kicked in long over heads of defenders whilst stationary or jostling with a defender. He needs to lead up to the ball and move around a lot more than he does. If he isn‘t a target and doesn‘t have the ball kicked to him, he needs to turn around and burn the defender. Watch Nick Reiwoldt, there is no one better at it in the game today.
Bomber mentioned that his aerobic capacity is actually really high so why is he unable to do this?
Buckets is a great talent and maybe this blow torch will bring out the best in him.
I guess we will find out on ANZAC Day…
They both should play back IMO. , but I don't like Hurley either end of the ground.
I think it's the fact he's getting paid an f load for a Lewis Roberts Thompson output
Ouch.
tough love.
This situation does my head in!