US politics - cooked

That’s a fair call. Maybe that’s how things should always be these days.
It doesn’t always happen like that though, it often doesn’t. Often it’s unspoken cues, more a vibe and a perceived chemistry and connection (banter, perceived flirting etc) that will embolden someone to seize what they feel is the perfect moment to kiss that person.
Often women (for example, maybe some men too) say that they like it when someone takes charge and goes for it. Obviously that is on the presumption that they are into the other person which this initiator thinks he/she is seeing/feeling.

My scenario is basically about someone who is just finding out that he/she is terrible at this and his perception of what was happening between the two of them was just way off. Maybe he or she is on the spectrum.

My point is, if the initiator was apologetic and didn’t pursue things further after seeing the recipient’s reaction I think things are about out of hand if the initiator is charged or loses their job.

Granted, it’s an elaborate hypothetical.

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I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I think if it’s related to a workplace it’s best to be more cautious.

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Great article.

Trump’s Strategy for Returning to Power Is Already Clear

Masha GessenMarch 2, 2021

Viktor Orbán became the Prime Minister of Hungary in 1998. Four years later, with a record number of Hungarians turning up to the polls, his party lost power. The next day, Orbán’s allies claimed voter fraud and demanded recounts, and although these demands were rejected, Orbán continued to claim that the election had been stolen. In 2010, after eight years leading the opposition, Orbán and his party, Fidesz, returned to power with a supermajority—enough to change the constitution and begin rapidly consolidating autocratic power. Orbán has not left office in the decade since.

The Law and Justice Party, led by the twin brothers Lech and Jarosław Kaczyński, first held power in Poland between 2005 and 2007, as part of a coalition government. Eight years after being voted out, their party (led, after Lech’s death, by Jarosław) returned to power, receiving the largest share of the vote that any party had seen since the fall of Communism. They quickly got to work dismantling the institutions of liberal democracy and establishing autocratic rule.

Other European autocrats never had to leave office—Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Belarus’s Alexander Lukashenka, and, of course, Russia’s Vladimir Putin have not been in the opposition since first touching power—but the cases of Hungary and Poland provide examples of a particular path to autocracy. It involves an aspiring autocrat who is rebuked by voters and who then frames his loss of power as illegitimate, launching a campaign aimed at undermining not only the party that won the election but the very institutions of democratic government. To discuss this scenario, I called Bálint Magyar, the author of such books as “Post-Communist Mafia State” and “The Anatomy of Post-Communist Regimes”—and my intellectual guiding light on things autocratic.

After losing the 2002 election, Orbán declared that “the homeland cannot be in the opposition.” By “the homeland” he meant himself, envisioned as the only true representative of Hungary; if he wasn’t in government, then the government had been hijacked. Orbán and the opposition, therefore, criticized everything that the new government did—not because they disagreed with the policies but because, in their view, a government that wasn’t led by their party had no right to exist. Magyar used an example from his own work: he served as Hungary’s education minister from 2002 to 2006 and created private-public partnerships that, he said, Fidesz members privately praised but publicly criticized—because they opposed everything done by the new government.

Magyar might as well have been describing last weekend’s Conservative Political Action Conference, in Orlando, where former President Donald Trump accused President Joe Biden of having “the most disastrous first month of any President in modern history.” Trump recited a litany of lies about his own record and Biden’s policies on immigration, and he ranted about the COVID -19 pandemic: it sounded like he was against masking and against not masking, against social distancing and against not social distancing—or, simply, against everything Biden. “In just one short month, we have gone from America first to America last,” Trump falsely claimed, positioning himself and his audience as the only true Americans, much as Orbán had claimed to be the sole representative of Hungary.

Throughout Orbán’s eight years in the opposition, the parties in power “were always trying to have a normal discussion of policy issues,” Magyar said. But Orbán’s party chose “a permanent regime-critic paradigm rather than a government-critic paradigm.” In other words, Fidesz opposed the institutions of government themselves, not just the people staffing those institutions or the policies that they pursued. “It was a permanent cold civil war,” Magyar explained. By the time that Fidesz returned to power, government institutions were widely viewed as illegitimate—and therefore easy to corrupt or dismantle. Trump, of course, waged war on institutions of government as President, and, as the ex-President, he will continue to attack their legitimacy. In this, he can count on the support of the Republican Party, which, for more than forty years, has positioned itself as the anti-government party.

Magyar said it was “bad news” that Trump had announced that he would not be leaving the Republicans to form his own party. During the past week, the conservative commentators Joe Walsh and William Kristol have floated the possibility of leaving the Republican Party to Trump and forming a new centrist conservative party or joining the Democrats. In Magyar’s opinion, that would be an ineffective response to Trumpism. “Whoever leaves a party always loses,” he said.

The Republican Party—whose representatives in Congress voted against certifying the results of the Presidential election hours after a violent Trumpist mob invaded the Capitol—isn’t going to save itself from Trumpism, and it certainly isn’t going to save America from it. What can the Democratic Party do? In Magyar’s view, it has to aggressively pursue policies with definitive answers that address the existential fears that fuel Trumpism. This brings us to Magyar’s new definition of populism, which he identifies in his most recent book as “an ideological instrument for the political program of morally unconstrained collective egoism.”

The key word in this definition is “egoism.” In fact, Magyar suggested reading the definition backward to better understand it: “The egoistic voter who wants to disregard other people and help solely himself can express this in a collective more easily than alone.” The collective form helps frame the selfishness in loftier terms, deploying “homeland,” “America first,” or ideas about keeping people safe from alien criminals. In the end, Magyar writes, such populism “delegitimizes moral constraints and legitimizes moral nihilism.” This is the sum of the political program: “The populist gains unquestionable moral status as he exploits the people’s psychological demand for group-belonging and selfishness, who in turn find an ‘understanding’ actor and collective amidst the difficulties of their lives.”

Magyar views populism as the opposite of liberalism, not only because it seeks to topple constitutional structures but because it rejects the ideals of solidarity that Magyar sees as the foundation of liberalism. The idea that liberalism is rooted in solidarity may sound strange to Americans, who often think of liberalism as a set of individual freedoms. But populists on both sides of the Atlantic traffic in this exact opposition: as Magyar puts it, their “populism offers problem solving without moral constraints—while dogmatic liberals offer moral constraints without problem solving.” A banner that hung over the CPAC stage this past week said “America Uncanceled,” a reference to the bogeyman of “cancel culture” and, more broadly, political correctness—precisely the moral constraints, rooted in solidarity, that Magyar is describing.

Of course, Orbán, Trump, and other populists do not deliver actual solutions: Magyar is describing their political offer, not their practice. The challenge for the party in power is to create solutions, proving in practice that solidarity can be more rewarding than selfishness. The Hungarian government in power during Orbán’s period in the opposition faced all the familiar pitfalls: it responded to a budgetary shortfall by requiring tuition payments at public universities and co-payments for medical services. These wildly unpopular and painful austerity measures only solidified support for Fidesz. The secret to saving the American system of government, according to Magyar, is not much of a secret. Will the Biden Administration and the Democratic Congress raise the minimum wage; provide all Americans with accessible and reliable health care; introduce a wealth tax; cancel student debt; and invest in infrastructure, particularly in rural areas? These are existential questions for both American society and the American political system.

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I think the cues or rules of courting have become very confusing very fast with mixed messages of behaviour. Its almost at the stage of if you meet via an app its anything goes, anything outside of that is fraught with danger. It makes it very strange for those who weren’t born with a phone in their hands.

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I guess the only good thing is that Trump is very old. Orbán is still in his 50’s and has many more years of his rule.

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it’s far less to do with the action itself and more to do with a combination of respecting personal boundaries and patterned behaviour.

replace the flirting or whatever with something like a dude at work coming up to you shouting “here comes the tickle monster!” in an elmo voice then just going nuts on your ribs. even if you make it clear that you’re absolutely not ok with that (anywhere from a polite dismissal to a “fk off you massive weirdo”) you might still see them doing it to others so can’t be completely confident that they won’t do it to you again.

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Mate, I at least have already said that their will be circumstances its fine to kiss a girl. Creating a hypothetical which doesn’t reflect the media reported facts at all, and then saying “but what about now” as to why its not ok to fire him, is frankly ridiculous.

I agree that the accusations don’t mean he’s guilty. Its why I’ve caveated my statements as much as possible by saying if they’re found to be credible; with the implication it is reasonable to believe them.

I’m not sure if I agree on the second part. Innocent until proven guilty applies only to criminal cases, where the force of government is on one side of the ledger. Between two parties we use “on the balance of probability”. I personally think the bar is higher for elected and key officials. So if on the balance of probabilities it looks like he did it, I think its totally fair to call for his resignation.

It’s possible that being from a NY Italian family, this is a natural form of greeting for him, … and as this has only happened (reportedly) over recent times, that his new found high profile. fame and success in Covid response etc sent him over the top ego and self importance wise, and it seeped into work situations, … but in this day and age after MeToo and the resultant clear consciousness around exactly this sort of behaviour, … he should probably step down voluntarily just for being so ridiculously, obliviously thick.

So you would support someone being found guilty in the court of public opinion if enough people make an accusation regardless? Innocent until proven guilty, still applies to a balance of probability. If there is enough evidence, as opposed to accusations that on the balance of probabilities he is guilty, so be it. But at this point in time there are a few accusations but not a lot of evidence.

We as a society need to step back from the pack mentality we have where a few people saying something about someone instantly means that person did it. As Essendon supporters and having gone through what we did with the saga, we more than most should understand that accusations are not proof of a crime. I simply say, let the process process. If he gets sued in a civil court and found liable, so be it.

In that case I’m sure he could come up with a few dozen fat 60yr old businessmen, pollies, and lobbyists who he’s kissed on first meeting, cos I bet in the course of his job he meets many more people in that demographic than he does in the young and female demographic…

Betcha he can’t.

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Re: Cuomo: Trying to obscure nursing home deaths. This is not good.

Suggest before you try this, obtain a signed consent agreement.
Its the only way you can prove there was consent.
Of course the other party may claim the consent document was signed under duress if it was not witnessed. That’s the only way you can protect yourself.

and spends his time watching TV feasting on KFC

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Chip of the old block

Straight into the cannon.

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Yep, and a perfect example of why the world will only be marginally better off when Old Rupe’ finally shuffles off (unless of course Rupe shuffles off whilst driving a car with Lachlan in it at the time)…

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Or he could take a leaf out of CP’s book, play the victim and go on stress leave.

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If you’ve been reading this thread, you would see that I’ve repeatedly said when the claims are investigated to ensure they are creditable. So no, I don’t think accusations on their own should make someone found guilty. Throughout the Biden/Reade I said if she is found credible he should withdraw. Reade was found to be the complete reverse, and I’d have had no problem voting for Biden if I was in the US.

But the reality is that the court of public opinion is in many cases the only court. I think simply ignoring the accusations is pretty misogynistic. Its ignoring centuries of persecution of women who make these claims, that the systems are setup to protect those in power, and that often proof is very difficult.

Where there is a system for investigation, that should be used. For example, Al Franklin should have had the opportunity to present his case to the Senate standards committee. Where you run the government, I think if the evidence is creditable there will be pressure on you to resign, or for the constituents to vote you out at the next primary.

Except of course I didn’t do that.

Comparing it to the Saga is IMO pretty flawed. After all, we self-reported. And it was to a government body, where I’ve said already if they bring a case the standard of proof should be higher. Essendon frankly never defended itself, and those who did (Reid) didn’t get punished. If we were innocent, our administration was the most contemptible in the world. Criticising any process when the defendant refuses to defend itself is pretty difficult.