Politics

General Gibberish Forums The nickyd News Room
242

Then BF, if you can control your anger for a moment, please explain why the first preference vote for the main political parties (mainly the ALP), was so low in the July 2 election, is it that the politicians are out of touch with ordinary Australians, or is it because Labor and the Coalition have both moved to the centre of the political spectrum and are thus almost too close to be separated, except for their rhetoric ?

If so, perhaps the Labor party should go back to its ideological roots and select a marxist leader like Labor did in the UK and give the Australian people a real choice at the next election . Perhaps it was a mistake for the ALP to model itself on the centre left Blair model in order to get back in power in Australia.

Primary votes for Labor and Liberal is about lowest ever. You can read into that whatever you like. It is a nonsense to suggest that Labor and Liberal have the same policy, industrial relations, economy, education, health, environment; they are poles apart. Shorten released 100 new policy initiatives, but they never got a fair run in any media, and to be fair neither did LNP policy.

Smaller Parties have no policy, except that they are against everything and are different. Perhaps Christians votes for the extremists Xians and the Rednecks vote for Hansen. Perhaps democracy is just over-rated.

What are Labors ideological roots? It has never been a socialist party, and has had internal fights about free trade vs protectionism, immigration and ownership of production ever since it was formed. Corbyn is no Marxist, Blair was never centre left and the ALP today are still a Party for the Worker and the Left, but they along with the Trade Union movement struggle to get the message out in a Murdoch dominated capitalist World.

Labor would do better though if it selected candidates on merit, same goes for Libs.

However, I prefer a ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  revolution with me being our Dear Leader.

ā€œDear Leaderā€,
I actually did not suggest any nonsense that the 2 parties had the same policies.

Many labor policies are expressions of a fine principle of kindness to all people according to need. But policies like Gonski and NDIS are massive financial millstones hanging around our neck, and excessive middle class welfare originated from the blue skies of the ā€œnever ending storyā€ of prosperity based on the mining boom.

The massive cost of Medicare arises from the fact that doctors today need all manner of very expensive diagnostic machines, rather that the quaint stethoscope and tongue depressor used last century by most doctors, and we must provide all this level of service to an aging population.

We face big big problems generating enough revenue to implement labor promises as well as the government largesse given to Australians over the last 16 years.

=====================================

I am off to the footy. Go Bombers.

243

I donā€™t understand any of the internal machinations of policy and what not nor do I join campaigners on the hustings.
I just rip off bits from that Blackadder episode with Pitt the younger asking for someone to test him on his Latin vocab during parliament.

244
Bacchusfox said: "..... Though the truth is that I have no friends who vote Liberal, or who would ever admit it to me. My sister is a Liberal member, and no-one else in the family talks to her, but maybe that is because she is a mean old ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ........"

This tells me a lot about you BF, politics is very much a dominant part of your life and so dominant and one sided that people you know with other political views dare not disclose who they vote for, lest they lose your friendship. Its has caused fracture in your own family. Doesnt that worry you?

Yep, thatā€™s right I am a real scary guy and people just get out of my way. Politics didnā€™t cause my Sister to be a mean old ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– , she was born that way and was a mean young ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  as well.

Nothing worries me, as I am a fatalist. One day we will have another Labor Federal Government and another Bomber Flag, I can wait.

245

Then BF, if you can control your anger for a moment, please explain why the first preference vote for the main political parties (mainly the ALP), was so low in the July 2 election, is it that the politicians are out of touch with ordinary Australians, or is it because Labor and the Coalition have both moved to the centre of the political spectrum and are thus almost too close to be separated, except for their rhetoric ?

If so, perhaps the Labor party should go back to its ideological roots and select a marxist leader like Labor did in the UK and give the Australian people a real choice at the next election . Perhaps it was a mistake for the ALP to model itself on the centre left Blair model in order to get back in power in Australia.

Primary votes for Labor and Liberal is about lowest ever. You can read into that whatever you like. It is a nonsense to suggest that Labor and Liberal have the same policy, industrial relations, economy, education, health, environment; they are poles apart. Shorten released 100 new policy initiatives, but they never got a fair run in any media, and to be fair neither did LNP policy.

Smaller Parties have no policy, except that they are against everything and are different. Perhaps Christians votes for the extremists Xians and the Rednecks vote for Hansen. Perhaps democracy is just over-rated.

What are Labors ideological roots? It has never been a socialist party, and has had internal fights about free trade vs protectionism, immigration and ownership of production ever since it was formed. Corbyn is no Marxist, Blair was never centre left and the ALP today are still a Party for the Worker and the Left, but they along with the Trade Union movement struggle to get the message out in a Murdoch dominated capitalist World.

Labor would do better though if it selected candidates on merit, same goes for Libs.

However, I prefer a ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  revolution with me being our Dear Leader.

246

Itā€™s not even a matter of economics, itā€™s a physical constraint. Money supply grows exponentially through compounding. Even low growth rates of 4% implies doubling every 18 years. We canā€™t just double the amount of gold in supply every 18 years. No compounding for gold, it needs to be dug up.

247
As a swinging voter who makes a pragmatic assessment each election on the best pathway forward its interesting to sit back and observe those who dont.

As is typical I think, I was attracted to leftist politics and idealism in my 20s and in my 30s began to respect the politicians who have to operate in the real world to help the country rather than grandstanding and scoring cheap points.

Couple of observations would be:

Many ALP people have this (unknowingly in most cases) arrogant sense of moral superiority which is shallow and annoying for its lack of practicality and its unfairness towards those who are praftical.

Hard Right conservatives are absurd and have such difficulty in expressing compassion for fear that it will result in a ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  their hard held position.

It is interesting that you went from left to right (to simplify it) as do most people. I went the other way. In my late teens early twenties I voted for conservatives, although I have always voted differently in the senate than I have in the lower house. Always. By the time I was in my early twenties I had swung to the left where I have been ever since.
The problem I see is that you tend to get defined by your politics. And there is some evidence that people believe or dont believe in something (climate change is an example) depending on what their side of politics believes. In other words scientists have been known to interpret their data to suit the beliefs of their political affiliations.
The Labor party is not left enough for me on a lot of things, however I agree with George Brandis (I shudder when I write that) on 18C which I think is a blot on our rights to free speech. I also think as I have put in earlier posts the fact that 18C cant be discussed without people being labelled some sort of ist, is a problem and contributes to the rise of people like Pauline Hanson.
Likewise things such as the booing of Adam Goodes. If you boo you must be racist. Express an alternative opinion to the mainstream and you are labelled.
I hate it. I think its a complete blot on our democracy. If all those people who voted for Pauline Hansen were made to feel part of the mainstream, instead of pilloried for their views, there might be an opportunity to persuade them to think more deeply on their views. And if the mainstream politicians spoke to those people instead of pillorying their views, they might get to understand the underlying fear that is causing people to have those views. People are not inherently racist. Racism is a product of fear, or education (parental).
But no one will have a rational discussion, they just label people, which pushes the conversation underground and only discussed among like minded people.
How can you have a discussion and change peoples views when they longer debate the issues because people are pilloried for expressing their opinions? Its ridiculous.
I have a second cousin, my cousinā€™s son, who I am friends with on Facebook. He is family, he is also a member of some far right wing group that marches and carries banners whenever there is a left group doing the same in Melbourne. Whenever I donā€™t agree with what he is saying on Facebook I have a conversation with him about it and provide alternative views.
He always answers and we have some discussions from time to time. He is an intelligent person and has his reasons for his views (I donā€™t agree with them but thatā€™s another story.) The point is if I just labelled him a racist and told him in no uncertain terms what I think of his bigotry etc, I would lose him. I would also lose the opportunity to present him with a differing viewpoint, because he is not going to get it from anyone else he mixes with.

The point I am trying to make is that people who blindly follow one doctrine or another is why we are where we are today. We will end up like the USA if we are not careful with two parties intractably opposed to each otherā€™s legislation or views regardless of the merits. And they have a congress thatā€™s fast becoming unworkable. Fortunately the rise of the minor parties might just save us from that fate.

248
As a swinging voter who makes a pragmatic assessment each election on the best pathway forward its interesting to sit back and observe those who dont.

As is typical I think, I was attracted to leftist politics and idealism in my 20s and in my 30s began to respect the politicians who have to operate in the real world to help the country rather than grandstanding and scoring cheap points.

Couple of observations would be:

Many ALP people have this (unknowingly in most cases) arrogant sense of moral superiority which is shallow and annoying for its lack of practicality and its unfairness towards those who are praftical.

Hard Right conservatives are absurd and have such difficulty in expressing compassion for fear that it will result in a ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  their hard held position.

Interesting observations with which I generally agree.

For instance the absurdity of hard right politicians and rabid journalists who deny climate change exists and believe endless growth of population on this planet is possible and in fact desirable.

Sooner or later the current Western Model of endless debt based growth in population, productivity and resource usage will grind to a halt and lets hope for the sake of our kids, it does not lead to too much social upheaval, war and famine.

Can we conceive, plan and replace this model with a more ā€œsteady stateā€ economic model, or are we going to rush towards the cliff like a lot of human lemmings ?

249
There is opinion, and there is outright bullshit. We call it out when we see it.

Leave Daytripper and pazza out of this.

250

As a swinging voter who makes a pragmatic assessment each election on the best pathway forward its interesting to sit back and observe those who dont.

As is typical I think, I was attracted to leftist politics and idealism in my 20s and in my 30s began to respect the politicians who have to operate in the real world to help the country rather than grandstanding and scoring cheap points.

Couple of observations would be:

Many ALP people have this (unknowingly in most cases) arrogant sense of moral superiority which is shallow and annoying for its lack of practicality and its unfairness towards those who are practical.

Hard Right conservatives are absurd and have such difficulty in expressing compassion for fear that it will result in a ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  their hard held position.

251
I went to a meeting last night on climate change organised by local environment groups and sponsored by the Greens.

I was very polite, but extremely disappointed at the presentation. It was all about the horrors of rising temperatures and the apparent disaster it will bring, but there were no actions that all of us and Government can take to turn it around. It was all about fear and terror.

I asked questions about what all of us can do, and the only response was to blame Tony Abbott.

This is why so many people just turn off and do nothing.

I asked why we donā€™t start by closing down Hazelwood Power Station, but as there would be a loss of 500 jobs in the Latrobe Valley, it seems it is too ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  hard.

So we can close down the car industry losing 250,000 jobs, but the dirtiest coal power station in the farking world that causes major health issues for many in Gippsland is untouchable.

Led me to read the Environment Policy of all Parties. Mostly motherhood statements with very little detail. As you would expect Greens and Labor say more than most, but overall very average.

Get on to it Ben !

Must have been a bad group, my local group lobbied 2 years ago and got this.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/toowoomba-council-approves-1bn-solar-farm/news-story/83a31d4aa1cb542544a1b8b01dcbaab6

252

Bacchusfox said:
ā€œā€¦ Though the truth is that I have no friends who vote Liberal, or who would ever admit it to me. My sister is a Liberal member, and no-one else in the family talks to her, but maybe that is because she is a mean old ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā€¦ā€

This tells me a lot about you BF, politics is very much a dominant part of your life and so dominant and one sided that people you know with other political views dare not disclose who they vote for, lest they lose your friendship. Its has caused fracture in your own family. Doesnt that worry you?

253
Maybe you are correct, and I do not hate anyone, except for Fark Carlton.

Though the truth is that I have no friends who vote Liberal, or who would ever admit it to me. My sister is a Liberal member, and no-one else in the family talks to her, but maybe that is because she is a mean old ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– .

I donā€™t get silos though Chris. Everything I do makes up the whole, and my love for the Bombers and my passion for Labor are linked. I have argued this with JBomber who sees my parallels between footy and politics are absurd. To me both are teams that I support, and in spite of everything that happens this will never waver.

And Blitz is now another group that ties it all together. Suppose I like to belong.

As to the silos, maybe if I put it this way. Out of the people who might be candidates for your friendship, one in 3 might be Liberal voters, and yet none of your friends appear to be Liberal voters. I conclude that you probably live, or have lived a life in a silo centred around politics and selected your friends only from those interested in your side of politics.

But life is not just about politics and this is the very reason why party politicians in Canberra and Spring street get to be out of touch with normal people. They need to get out more.

No disrespect Comrade, but I donā€™t have ā€œcandidatesā€ to be friends. I donā€™t live in any silos and donā€™t go around selecting friends, people are either friends or they are not.

And I know dozens of Politicians, and they are all normal people, and all are very much in touch, from all Parties. Maybe you should try and be less judgmental and get out into the real world more.

Then BF, if you can control your anger for a moment, please explain why the first preference vote for the main political parties (mainly the ALP), was so low in the July 2 election, is it that the politicians are out of touch with ordinary Australians, or is it because Labor and the Coalition have both moved to the centre of the political spectrum and are thus almost too close to be separated, except for their rhetoric ?

If so, perhaps the Labor party should go back to its ideological roots and select a marxist leader like Labor did in the UK and give the Australian people a real choice at the next election . Perhaps it was a mistake for the ALP to model itself on the centre left Blair model in order to get back in power in Australia.

254
He can call it as he sees it, but his political views based on the English/Irish sectarianism that had permeated into Australian society in the first half of the 20th century are now completely irrelevant in our society today.

Keating is a politician of the 20th century and is a dinosaur.

Not irrelevant at all, and given Brexit, more relevant than ever.

The level of support for Hansen and other rightwing views is a revolt against globalization and will grow. She breeds fear and loathing, Keating was all about strong Leadership and it is also much more pertinent now given the weakness and popularity driven current crop.

Whitlam, Hawke and Keating were all about progress. Whitlam started the program with social progress, but a poor ecomnomic plan, Hawke and Keating had the economy plan and sowed the seeds for reform and progress.

All destroyed by the Liberal ideology of letting the market decide our fate.

Keating above all was a man for all seasons, and is the type of Leader we need.

And an intense dislike for the English rulers was a big part of my upbringing that continues to this day. And anyone with Irish heritage who can forgive and forget the disgraces of English rule in Ireland is a traitor to his forbears.

255
No doubt Keating had a powerful intellect, a Irish republican driven by a deep seated hatred of all things derived from England. If he wasnt an Australian shooting his mouth off under parliamentary privilege, he might have been with the IRA shooting English people in the kneecaps.

No, I would not like to have a beer with him. I like to relax when I socialise.

Paul Keating still has a powerful intellect, and he calls it as he sees it.

He was a great PM, and much more than your nonsense statement. Now I could have easily been the guy shooting kneecaps, if my Mum didnā€™t emigrate from Ireland when she was young. And the IRA didnā€™t shoot many English kneecaps, it was reserved for Irish traitors.

BF I am also a descendant of Irish imigrants. Does the name Casey ring a bell?

Come on, you know that an " intense dislike " for the English and all they stood for in the context of Ireland was a major part of Keatings upbringing, his political mentors and his subsequent politics and permeated his public utterings.

He can call it as he sees it, but his political views based on the English/Irish sectarianism that had permeated into Australian society in the first half of the 20th century are now completely irrelevant in our society today.

Keating is a politician of the 20th century and is a dinosaur.

256
No doubt Keating had a powerful intellect, a Irish republican driven by a deep seated hatred of all things derived from England. If he wasnt an Australian shooting his mouth off under parliamentary privilege, he might have been with the IRA shooting English people in the kneecaps.

No, I would not like to have a beer with him. I like to relax when I socialise.

Paul Keating still has a powerful intellect, and he calls it as he sees it.

He was a great PM, and much more than your nonsense statement. Now I could have easily been the guy shooting kneecaps, if my Mum didnā€™t emigrate from Ireland when she was young. And the IRA didnā€™t shoot many English kneecaps, it was reserved for Irish traitors.

257
Maybe you are correct, and I do not hate anyone, except for Fark Carlton.

Though the truth is that I have no friends who vote Liberal, or who would ever admit it to me. My sister is a Liberal member, and no-one else in the family talks to her, but maybe that is because she is a mean old ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– .

I donā€™t get silos though Chris. Everything I do makes up the whole, and my love for the Bombers and my passion for Labor are linked. I have argued this with JBomber who sees my parallels between footy and politics are absurd. To me both are teams that I support, and in spite of everything that happens this will never waver.

And Blitz is now another group that ties it all together. Suppose I like to belong.

As to the silos, maybe if I put it this way. Out of the people who might be candidates for your friendship, one in 3 might be Liberal voters, and yet none of your friends appear to be Liberal voters. I conclude that you probably live, or have lived a life in a silo centred around politics and selected your friends only from those interested in your side of politics.

But life is not just about politics and this is the very reason why party politicians in Canberra and Spring street get to be out of touch with normal people. They need to get out more.

No disrespect Comrade, but I donā€™t have ā€œcandidatesā€ to be friends. I donā€™t live in any silos and donā€™t go around selecting friends, people are either friends or they are not.

And I know dozens of Politicians, and they are all normal people, and all are very much in touch, from all Parties. Maybe you should try and be less judgmental and get out into the real world more.

258
There is opinion, and there is outright bullshit. We call it out when we see it.

The politics thread. A Blitz subset comprising self proclaimed bullshit arbiters ?

259
Well the rorting Speaker and Deputy Speaker .... GAWN

And Iā€™m led to believe there are at least 2 other ALP rorting members who represent Country regions but live full time in the city will be exposed soon

Whereā€™s Dan?

Why are they rorting, when they are following the rules.

If anyone is cheating and committing fraud, then get the Police involved and charge them like they did with Peter Slipper and those others, like Kathy Jackson.

In my view the rules are too generous, but the Member for Melton has not lived in Melton for at least 5 years when his marriage dissolved and the Wife got the house. They can ask all they like for him to pay it back, but he doesnā€™t have the money; the joys of the Family Court.

Ah heā€™s one of those working poor politicians we hear about. FFS Fox, heā€™s on a base salary of about 150K & heā€™s been in politics since 1992. Did he buy up big in Pyramid, loves hookers, blow & the nags or are you trying to have a lend of us?

As I said JBomber, if anyone breaks the rules, commits fraud then call in the Police and lay charges and let the Law deal with it. Whether it be the Labor Member for Melton or a Liberal Federal Member taking private plane trips, or anyone else. This has always been my position and consistent every time it is raised.

I believe Politicians are underpayed, especially when they have to put up with blokes like me being in their face at every opportunity. These journalists love trolling through all the public records of parliament finances trying to create a story, playing on the envy of others.

Whether or not the Speaker or the Deputy Speaker showed good judgement is arguable, but as I understand there is no fraud, all was documented and disclosed appropriately.

I realize JBomber that you have a very different view of Politics and Politicians than me. I once aspired to seek office and could have won preselection, hence a gig in Parliament, but I declined, as I value my independence and decided it was not worth the sacrifices. I do admire those with the courage to have a go.

These media ā€œrevelationsā€ just feed envy and are written to suggest the worst. Whether or not the Member for Melton spends his money on prostitution or gambling is none of my business. If he is using drugs, and I have no reason to think he is, then I would seek to help him.

Your belief that 150K plus generous entitlements is somehow underpaid doesnā€™t really address the issue of why he is living so far from the people heā€™s meant to be representing & why you believe he doesnā€™t have the money to pay it back if asked to. Do you believe their salaries make living in Melton unaffordable? The median house price is less than 300K, the prices where he is actually living are nearly double. This is clearly rorting. Sure we can agree that its not fraud but that doesnā€™t make it right no matter who does it. Its exactly this type of rorting which strengthens mine & the many others opinions that pollies are not necessarily people to be admired & certainly not worthy of being paid more as a collective. What Iā€™m not sure of is why you have tried to somehow justify his decision to move from the place heā€™s meant to represent to a far more appealing suburb? What relevance does his divorce have to that decision? Again he is meant to represent the Melton area, do you believe that job isnā€™t compromised by living so far away, regardless of what the rules may be, can you at least recognise that the perception that pollies are out touch with their electorates is validated by these types of cases?

I am not trying to justify actions of any Pollie, and I offer no moral judgement either. As far as I know, no rules were broken, so why is it any of our business. Change the rules if they are wrong, but why abuse anyone for staying within them.

If I was the Member for Melton, I would live there. Mrs Fox would leave me and my family would never visit, but I would live there. I recall many years ago working for the Member for Maribyrnong at his Moonee Ponds office, and he lived in Kew. Whether he lives in Melton, or Ocean Grove makes no difference to doing his job. Actually Bacchus Marsh is in his patch and I have been suggesting for years that he move here, probably too close to me.

As I understand there is no compulsion to live in your electorate. At times when I was Mayor, living in the middle of Town suffering abuse and scorn, made me feel like moving.

I have known the Member for Melton for twenty years, he is a good friend. I am not going to judge his actions, especially on Blitz, friends donā€™t do that. And I am not defending him, just pointing out that no matter what you and I think, any money he received was within the entitlements of the job. For what is is worth, paying some-one an extra $40k a year to have to drive about an hour to get home is a relic of the past and is generous, but it is legally available in his package. I do not believe he needs to pay anything back.

I think not living anywhere near the area he represents absolutely effects his job & at a minimum it contributes to the poor perception of pollies as a whole. As for why is it ā€œour businessā€, I think you know why - heā€™s rorted over 100K from taxpayers. Again I know its not fraud, I know he hasnā€™t broken any specific rules but can you at least recognise its a clear as day rort & he deserves to be scrutinised for it. The allowance isnā€™t necessarily the problem, it was set up for legitimate claims where representatives come from regional areas. In those cases the pollies live in the areas they represent & have no choice but to commute long distances to attend Parliament. The alternative is simply have a group of inner city pollies who are somehow meant to represent the whole state - do you really think not living in the area isnā€™t an issue in that scenario? In this case Nardella has chosen to leave his electorate & move to an area completely detached from his electorate & its issues. Did he choose to do that only to exploit the allowances - is that not a question that should be asked? I donā€™t think spending his time in his electorate rather than working out ways to extort extra money is an un reasonable expectation to have on pollies. Again his actions highlight why many people are disillusioned with politics - if you canā€™t understand why then you IMHO are also out of touch with expectations. Just as certain as Bishop was rorting her entitlements, Nardella is very clearly rorting his & I think the expectation from the majority would be that he should pay it back & either move back to he electorate or be removed from office.

You are a funny boy, JBomber. I do know what expectations of some like you are and they reek of envy. I suppose you have the expectation that even though you might be entitled to an allowance in your job, you would never claim it.

These entitlements are part of the salary package, so you claim them. It is up to the Accountant to reject them.

Anyway I no longer believe in democracy and in fact all Politicians are redundant. Just look how J34 have been basically ignored in seeking support or even a hearing by Pollies.

Once if you needed something you would call the Local Member, but now it is a waste of time, so we would be better off without them.

He was NOT entitled to these payments hence why he chose to move to an area where he could exploit the rules. Thereā€™s a very very big difference & its why heā€™s had to resign. Its got nothing at all to do with envy & everything to do with standards. I get that heā€™s your friend & socialist left comrade but if you canā€™t at least see where heā€™s strayed a long way from whats expected of pollies then I genuinely believe your moral compass is off. There are loads of entitlements pollies can access & the massive majority of these legitimate claims do not warrant investigation let alone resignations when exposed. This particular entitlement was introduced for rural pollies, not people who canā€™t stand to live anywhere near the people they claim to represent. Again its a clear as day rort, you say you donā€™t want to defend him but you are.

Like you say once upon a time you went to your local member, now your local member is 80km away & is removed from all the local issues. Seeing any problem at all yet?

260

There is opinion, and there is outright bullshit. We call it out when we see it.

261

Yep it was called a carbon tax, but Tone fixed that one.