What would you guys do if you were the ones in power? Genuine question.
Bring them to Australia, vet them, let them stay or move them on. Do it quickly, do it, properly. And end the political point scoring via fear mongering. Seriously, there are more students overstaying their visas every year than there are of these people.
How do you move them on & to where? A big issue we already have in processing boat arrivals is that they destroy their identification. Strangely many arrive with the exact same story as the boats before them & have thrown their passports (the ones they required to fly to Indonesia) overboard. This means that its extremely difficult to determine with certainty who they are, where they are from & if their story has any legitimacy. Even when they have been determined to not be genuine we have the expensive & exhaustive process of court proceedings to delay moving them on. I believe the onus should be on the asylum seeker to show evidence of their claims.
Maybe its niave of me but I would think that if I was genuinely from say Afghanistan & was fleeing persecution (what does that actually mean) then surely I would keep my passport to at least prove where I was from & allow some background checks to support my story. Of coure on the other hand if I was simply a person looking to circumvent Australia's immigration queues then any documents that showed I wasn't from afghanistan & have no reason to seek asylum woudl be overboard in a flash.
What would you guys do if you were the ones in power? Genuine question.
Bring them to Australia, vet them, let them stay or move them on. Do it quickly, do it, properly. And end the political point scoring via fear mongering. Seriously, there are more students overstaying their visas every year than there are of these people.
How do you move them on & to where? A big issue we already have in processing boat arrivals is that they destroy their identification. Strangely many arrive with the exact same story as the boats before them & have thrown their passports (the ones they required to fly to Indonesia) overboard. This means that its extremely difficult to determine with certainty who they are, where they are from & if their story has any legitimacy. Even when they have been determined to not be genuine we have the expensive & exhaustive process of court proceedings to delay moving them on. I believe the onus should be on the asylum seeker to show evidence of their claims.
Maybe its niave of me but I would think that if I was genuinely from say Afghanistan & was fleeing persecution (what does that actually mean) then surely I would keep my passport to at least prove where I was from & allow some background checks to support my story. Of coure on the other hand if I was simply a person looking to circumvent Australia's immigration queues then any documents that showed I wasn't from afghanistan & have no reason to seek asylum woudl be overboard in a flash.
i'm sure everyone in afghanistan has a passport.
Everyone who flies to Indonesia does - thats kinda the point.
What would you guys do if you were the ones in power? Genuine question.
Bring them to Australia, vet them, let them stay or move them on. Do it quickly, do it, properly. And end the political point scoring via fear mongering. Seriously, there are more students overstaying their visas every year than there are of these people.
How do you move them on & to where? A big issue we already have in processing boat arrivals is that they destroy their identification. Strangely many arrive with the exact same story as the boats before them & have thrown their passports (the ones they required to fly to Indonesia) overboard. This means that its extremely difficult to determine with certainty who they are, where they are from & if their story has any legitimacy. Even when they have been determined to not be genuine we have the expensive & exhaustive process of court proceedings to delay moving them on. I believe the onus should be on the asylum seeker to show evidence of their claims.
Maybe its niave of me but I would think that if I was genuinely from say Afghanistan & was fleeing persecution (what does that actually mean) then surely I would keep my passport to at least prove where I was from & allow some background checks to support my story. Of coure on the other hand if I was simply a person looking to circumvent Australia's immigration queues then any documents that showed I wasn't from afghanistan & have no reason to seek asylum woudl be overboard in a flash.
i'm sure everyone in afghanistan has a passport.
Everyone who flies to Indonesia does - thats kinda the point.
That's my one reservation.
Always will be.
If you're fleeing persecution, and I don't doubt for a minute that they are, surely that persecution stops at Indonesia.
Makes me laugh, the 'economic immigrants' line. People with money fly here and stay here, and we do nothing to send them home.
People with money do not put themselves and their families on leaky boats.
******* terrorism. Their wily scheme is to drown off the coast of Christmas Island.
fark me.
People with enough money to pay people smugglers with leaky boats to get them to Australia surely have enough money to fly to Australia (which is a fraction of the cost) IF they are legitimate in their claims. The reports I've seen claim that smugglers charge from $2500-$10,000USD per person - that would get you a business class return trip for an entire family from Indonesia to Melbourne. As it is we do have a lot of people who arrive via air & claim asylum but their claims are far less likely to be succesful because there's that tricky part about having to have ID to get onto the plane in the 1st place. If you look at the figures of boat v's air arrivals you will see that there has been a massive shift in the percentages. From 2002-2008 about 96% of asylum seekers arrived via air, in the last 5 years that has shifted so that now approx 52% arrive via boat. The reality is that you are far more likley to be succesful in being resettled in Australia by paying smuglers than applying through UNHCR. Thats why people take the risks.
Makes me laugh, the 'economic immigrants' line. People with money fly here and stay here, and we do nothing to send them home.
People with money do not put themselves and their families on leaky boats.
******* terrorism. Their wily scheme is to drown off the coast of Christmas Island.
fark me.
People with enough money to pay people smugglers with leaky boats to get them to Australia surely have enough money to fly to Australia (which is a fraction of the cost) IF they are legitimate in their claims. The reports I've seen claim that smugglers charge from $2500-$10,000USD per person - that would get you a business class return trip for an entire family from Indonesia to Melbourne. As it is we do have a lot of people who arrive via air & claim asylum but their claims are far less likely to be succesful because there's that tricky part about having to have ID to get onto the plane in the 1st place. If you look at the figures of boat v's air arrivals you will see that there has been a massive shift in the percentages. From 2002-2008 about 96% of asylum seekers arrived via air, in the last 5 years that has shifted so that now approx 52% arrive via boat. The reality is that you are far more likley to be succesful in being resettled in Australia by paying smuglers than applying through UNHCR. Thats why people take the risks.
But Wim - it makes sense. They could just fly here, safely and in comfort, but they don't have ID they need to get into the country. And they don't have ID because they throw it overboard when they hop on the boat. And there is no contradiction there at all.
Makes me laugh, the 'economic immigrants' line. People with money fly here and stay here, and we do nothing to send them home.
People with money do not put themselves and their families on leaky boats.
******* terrorism. Their wily scheme is to drown off the coast of Christmas Island.
fark me.
People with enough money to pay people smugglers with leaky boats to get them to Australia surely have enough money to fly to Australia (which is a fraction of the cost) IF they are legitimate in their claims. The reports I've seen claim that smugglers charge from $2500-$10,000USD per person - that would get you a business class return trip for an entire family from Indonesia to Melbourne. As it is we do have a lot of people who arrive via air & claim asylum but their claims are far less likely to be succesful because there's that tricky part about having to have ID to get onto the plane in the 1st place. If you look at the figures of boat v's air arrivals you will see that there has been a massive shift in the percentages. From 2002-2008 about 96% of asylum seekers arrived via air, in the last 5 years that has shifted so that now approx 52% arrive via boat. The reality is that you are far more likley to be succesful in being resettled in Australia by paying smuglers than applying through UNHCR. Thats why people take the risks.
Sorry, but that is absolute bullshit.
Every syllable.
Then simply disprove it if you can. Show me the figures from any credible source that people smugglers are cheaper, show me some evidence that air arrivals aren't less likely to be succesful, give me a reference to dispell the parlimentary libraries' records that indicate a shift in arrival methods or find me the other UN's publications that dissagree with their official site. When you have anything of substance come back & try to debate the issue. If you've got nothing but insults then surely you've gotta know you're struggling.
Makes me laugh, the 'economic immigrants' line. People with money fly here and stay here, and we do nothing to send them home.
People with money do not put themselves and their families on leaky boats.
******* terrorism. Their wily scheme is to drown off the coast of Christmas Island.
fark me.
People with enough money to pay people smugglers with leaky boats to get them to Australia surely have enough money to fly to Australia (which is a fraction of the cost) IF they are legitimate in their claims. The reports I've seen claim that smugglers charge from $2500-$10,000USD per person - that would get you a business class return trip for an entire family from Indonesia to Melbourne. As it is we do have a lot of people who arrive via air & claim asylum but their claims are far less likely to be succesful because there's that tricky part about having to have ID to get onto the plane in the 1st place. If you look at the figures of boat v's air arrivals you will see that there has been a massive shift in the percentages. From 2002-2008 about 96% of asylum seekers arrived via air, in the last 5 years that has shifted so that now approx 52% arrive via boat. The reality is that you are far more likley to be succesful in being resettled in Australia by paying smuglers than applying through UNHCR. Thats why people take the risks.
Sorry, but that is absolute bullshit.
Every syllable.
Then simply disprove it if you can. Show me the figures from any credible source that people smugglers are cheaper, show me some evidence that air arrivals aren't less likely to be succesful, give me a reference to dispell the parlimentary libraries' records that indicate a shift in arrival methods or find me the other UN's publications that dissagree with their official site. When you have anything of substance come back & try to debate the issue. If you've got nothing but insults then surely you've gotta know you're struggling.
Or, you know, you could.
Seeing as how you're the one making the assertion.
From my personal experience, illegal immigrants are Chinese.
Chinese, Chinese and Chinese, followed by Indian.
They didn't come by boat, but they sure as hell don't have a Medicare card.
Trailling the pack are Iranians too scared to admit they have a religion, then Iraqis, then...well, no-one really.
You were talking about economic refugees, so talk to me...
By far, and I mean ******* far, the most illegal immigrants are Chinese.
And if you actually give a rats ■■■■ about illegal immigration and people traders, then raid the brothels. All of them.
Let me know how many Iranians you find.
I think you are confusing illegal immigrants with asylum seekers with refugees. These are 3 different groups of people even though some can shift between groups as their situation changes. Yes Chinese & Indians in particular overstay legal temporary visas (students, tourists etc) far more than say your example of Iranians. That most likley has more to do with the small number of Iranians granted temporary visas than anything else. I am yet to hear anybody make a case that we shouldn't pursue these people & send them back ASAP so I'm not sure why they are being used as a diversion to the issue of asylum seekers.
As I've said before, I don't care if its Poms who come for the cricket & don't want to go home, Chinese students who graduated from Sunshine TAFE 10 years ago or Helga the backpacker who's been getting her ■■■■ out for cash for the last 2 years, if you are here illegally then you should be deported.
BTW there was a recent raid in your area on a brothel with some illegal workers but I'd wager you'd find more a little further out in the fruit & grape picking areas.
Illegal immigrants, either by boat or by stealth, or national security?
Sure, send all the economic immigrants home,
But you'll go though ten thousand Chinese and Indians before you get to someone who arrived by boat.
But that doesn't matter.
Because boats.
I understand the issue of overstaying visas but don't understand what that has to do with those arriving by boat claiming asylum. Should we ignore boat arrivals simply because logistically its difficult to find those already here. Should we, as some have suggested, add to the problem of locating visa overstayers by granting boat arrivals temporary visas & releasing them into the community?
Makes me laugh, the 'economic immigrants' line. People with money fly here and stay here, and we do nothing to send them home.
People with money do not put themselves and their families on leaky boats.
******* terrorism. Their wily scheme is to drown off the coast of Christmas Island.
fark me.
People with enough money to pay people smugglers with leaky boats to get them to Australia surely have enough money to fly to Australia (which is a fraction of the cost) IF they are legitimate in their claims. The reports I've seen claim that smugglers charge from $2500-$10,000USD per person - that would get you a business class return trip for an entire family from Indonesia to Melbourne. As it is we do have a lot of people who arrive via air & claim asylum but their claims are far less likely to be succesful because there's that tricky part about having to have ID to get onto the plane in the 1st place. If you look at the figures of boat v's air arrivals you will see that there has been a massive shift in the percentages. From 2002-2008 about 96% of asylum seekers arrived via air, in the last 5 years that has shifted so that now approx 52% arrive via boat. The reality is that you are far more likley to be succesful in being resettled in Australia by paying smuglers than applying through UNHCR. Thats why people take the risks.
Sorry, but that is absolute bullshit.
Every syllable.
Then simply disprove it if you can. Show me the figures from any credible source that people smugglers are cheaper, show me some evidence that air arrivals aren't less likely to be succesful, give me a reference to dispell the parlimentary libraries' records that indicate a shift in arrival methods or find me the other UN's publications that dissagree with their official site. When you have anything of substance come back & try to debate the issue. If you've got nothing but insults then surely you've gotta know you're struggling.
Or, you know, you could.
Seeing as how you're the one making the assertion.
From my personal experience, illegal immigrants are Chinese.
Chinese, Chinese and Chinese, followed by Indian.
They didn't come by boat, but they sure as hell don't have a Medicare card.
Trailling the pack are Iranians too scared to admit they have a religion, then Iraqis, then...well, no-one really.
You were talking about economic refugees, so talk to me...
I've given evidence to back my position, you've given nothing. If you believe what I stated was BS then it should be very easy for you to counter with more than you have. Even Dennis Denuto put up a better counter.
It is more expensive to pay people smugglers than travel agents. It is far safer & of course quicker to fly so why in your view would anyone pay smugglers? I've given my reasons why I believe many do it & given evidence from the Australian Parlimentary library & UNHCR to support my position. What is your view & what do you have to support it?
I'm not sure if this has been covered in this (these) discussion(s) before but the issue I always struggle with is if people claiming to be genuine refugees from persecution, terror etc manage to successfully leave their country of origin behind and their main issue is the previously mentioned persecution, then why do they need to continue the dangerous journey to Australia.
If you're coming from Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan etc and you make it to, let's say, Indonesia...then surely you have succeeded in your endeavours to escape the issues that caused you to flee in the first place.
Indonesia is a relatively stable country (especially when compared to the previously mentioned countries) so why do they "need" to come to Australia?
Why not settle there?
Or any of the other countries they ventured through on the way here?
Pretty sure we were (not sure if it changed in last year or so since Indonesia/Malaysia solution stup) the only place (bar-new zealand I'd guess) in Asia Pacific that settles refugees and lets them work and gives their kids access to education when bona fide.
It is absolutely essential, on humanitarian grounds, that policy provides a strong deterrent to people arriving by boat. Too many people have died at sea, and there can be no justification for a policy that encourages boat arrivals. On that measure, which surely should the most important, the coalition have been far better at managing the problem.
It beggars belief that JBomber who I know has at least half a brain can actually believe the crap he spouts. Windy Dill you are no better.
Why do you guys have this fear and loathing of refugees? Are you racists or religious bigots? I just don’t get it and if you do any research you will see all the myths surroundings refugees, their benefits and what they go through to escape a ■■■■ poor life.
Maybe they pay $10,000 for a boat trip from Indonesia, so what! Our immigration requirements are so much BS that they cannot catch a plane without papers. I have been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Sri Lanka; there is little justice, rule of law and passports don’t exist to most people. So you escape across borders, pay smugglers and try to escape death the best ways you can.
What about compassion, that Aussie fair go and love of our brothers and sisters. Nah I forgot, you are selfish, hateful white, Anglos, Christian who fear everyone who wants a little bit of what you have by a quirk of birth.
It beggars belief that JBomber who I know has at least half a brain can actually believe the crap he spouts. Windy Dill you are no better.
Why do you guys have this fear and loathing of refugees? Are you racists or religious bigots? I just don't get it and if you do any research you will see all the myths surroundings refugees, their benefits and what they go through to escape a ■■■■ poor life.
Maybe they pay $10,000 for a boat trip from Indonesia, so what! Our immigration requirements are so much BS that they cannot catch a plane without papers. I have been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Sri Lanka; there is little justice, rule of law and passports don't exist to most people. So you escape across borders, pay smugglers and try to escape death the best ways you can.
What about compassion, that Aussie fair go and love of our brothers and sisters. Nah I forgot, you are selfish, hateful white, Anglos, Christian who fear everyone who wants a little bit of what you have by a quirk of birth.
See here's the thing Pat. You & the other lemmings keep sprouting off the same line about how wrong I am but time & again you fail to produce anything to actually back your possition. Instead you resort to trying to belittle me personally or just bypass reality & facts with the same emotive lies you've been fed & repeat when you don't have substance. Do some research yourself & tell me what I gotten wrong (BTW I'm still waiting for your reply from the last time this subject was discussed).
As for compassion I'm sure by now you've had time to check my facts on Australia resettling more refugees per capita than ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET! (if you'll remember that was another fact you said i had wrong but never got back to me) So how about you bleeding hearts start to recognise that Australia already shows compassion & a fair go. A fair go is NOT allowing people smugglers to dictate where our go is given. We have a very generous humanitarian programe & legal immigration system that has facilitated approx 28% of the population being born in another country. What we don't have is an open door policy that would be patently stupid & unsustainable. You may want to relocate every person less fortunate than yourself here but remember you are free to purge your own guilt with your own resources. Go help these people yourself if you feel so obliged but I'm yet to see any logical reason why this country should somehow be responsible for the world's problems. I get that you lefties have handout & entitlement issues but extending that beyong the borders to anyone who simply gets inside our territory is something you've failed to justify.
Why do you guys have this fear and loathing of refugees? Are you racists or religious bigots?
you are selfish, hateful white, Anglos, Christian who fear everyone who wants a little bit of what you have by a quirk of birth.
The irony of those two statements cannot be missed by even you surely?