US politics - fried (part 5)

[Loflyer]

@planb

Which of these do you disagree with?

Or, do you prefer the warmonger types and further escalating the situation with Russia?

Planb reeled off vague, unedified points that resemble MAGA bugbears and untruths then asked, with clear intent to challenge, using inflammatory terms throughout, for people to respond. For thee, not for me?

[stir_fried_ewok]

@Bigpapa

He’s both trying to say she’s illegitimate, and Biden is still pulling the strings, while also saying she preformed an unconstitutional coup, while also saying he is infact legally president.

It’s alot I know.

[Crazy_Bomber]

@DonMania

I think that yes, kindness and respect for all opinions is a good thing. I do think that there is sometimes an over rotation into thinking all opinions, no matter how uninformed or bonkers, deserve the same treatment as factual statements. And then, a lot of playing the victim when someone is rightly called out on it.

I think that’s your way of trying to justify being able to ridicule difference of opinion, “oh stop playing victim and take this abuse”. If you do see an opinion you think is uninformed, respectfully try and disagree with those points instead of abusing and mocking that person, kind of what you did to planb? I’ve had people PM they don’t want to post in the thread because of the abuse.

[DonMania]

Genuine question. Me asking if something was “parody” is abuse in your eyes?

[wimmera1]

Dude.
Stop.

[Preliminary_Point2]

WTF is happening in here

[Benny40]

@planb

Is supporting a law that prohibits sexual reassignment surgery, or treatment such as puberty blockers for minors considered hate speech?

What age do you believe kids should be able to undergo this treatment?

I’m coming into this late, but let’s take a grounded picture of what the reality is rather than the political hype.

Gender reassignment surgery on under 18s is extraordinarily rare. We are talking maybe 200 cases per year, although my memory is fuzzy and it could have been 200 cases over a few years. Of that number, almost all of them were to give the kid the correct genitals for their genetic gender, not to change it. So we are talking a handful of genuine reassignment surgeries, which to me screams a politicisation of a very very rare medical procedure.

Puberty blockers are there to give a child time to make an informed decision. They are largely reversible, should the young adult decide not to go ahead with the surgery. The problem with not using puberty blockers is that it sets the child on an irreversible pathway that can cause massive permanent psychological harm. There’s objectively very little harm caused by blockers, so again a politicisation of a low harm medical procedure.

The flip side of this argument and the one I feel very very strongly about is the suicide rate of teenagers experiencing gender dysphoria. By preventing access to gender affirmation treatments, the suicide rate of those kids skyrockets. I’m watching the right wing prefer kids to kill themselves in large numbers instead of letting them make a personal change to their body that doesn’t affect anyone else. It truly blows my mind.

[Crazy_Bomber]

@DonMania

Genuine question. Me asking if something was “parody” is abuse in your eyes?

I was referring to everyone, not specifiallly you but your post was one of many, yes. Why should it be a parody? You know well it’s not, as planb said those all talking points as to why people would infact vote Republican, which of course no one has forced you to agree with. I don’t agree with a lot of those points FWIW.

[wimmera1]

Well…yeah.
If I may nutshell…
People who are able to transition are a lot more balanced than those who are prevented from doing so.

[Benny40]

@planb

As a human - I don’t know the guy.

As a world leader, the best option available, and the better policies put forward.

America should take care of their own backyard, instead of starting pointless wars and playing world police every term.

Ukraine & Russia is only escalating, and there is no sign the Democrats intend to change this. People should be more concerned by this, and voting for the party advocating for peace and open discussions.

If you are genuinely interested in the causal factors that led to the war in Ukraine, I’m happy to have a discussion. The reality of the 10 year history of this war is far more nuanced than the right wing ecosystem coverage and almost none of that complex history involves the US.

@planb

We weren’t in a proxy war with Russia under Trump’s term.

We actually 100% were in the same proxy war during Trump’s term, but Putin hadn’t yet escalated to a full scale invasion.

[Crazy_Bomber]

@Bigpapa

@Crazy_Bomber

Agree, apart from when someone makes a respectful post outlying why they people vote Republican, then we throw those principles out the door and abuse them however we want because we disagree with them. Kindness and love are only principles we adhere to if it confirms with our viewpoint.

Yeah Crazy, look, you got to take some responsibility. I get you want to debate but understand it started from the use of the phrase ‘child mutilation’ and you yourself gave the scenario of talking about 3 years and 7 years old playing with a doll in the context of gender surgery, which is pretty inflammatory language and examples, so you’re going to get some passionate responses.

It’s buzzword and It’s a misrepresentation of the debate.

I agree and do take some responsbility, my from viewpoint I see the word mutilation come up so often it’s become another word. I can definitley see in hindsight how that word might be inflammatory so I absolutley apologise for not calling that word out. The debate for me is about protecting children and what ages they should be able to make that decision, which is think is a fair and justifiable debate, but I think we can all agree that 18 onwards that they are free to make that decision themselves.

@wimmera1 I misunderstood the impact of the word mutilation, I apologise for not calling it out.

[Brewer_s_Droop]

@bigallan

IIRC, in Victoria at least, there has only been one case of an under 18yo allowed to transition without both parents consent. This was after a court case with extensive scientific evidence.
Transitioning is subject to rigorous conditions. It’s not a simple matter of a kid wanting it and the parents giving the OK.

What’s more, in the real world, there are a lot of deadbeat, f’d-up or plain evil parents out there, and they shouldn’t have any kind of power over a human being, let alone a child. Procreating does not mean you have the best interests of your creation in heart or mind.

I know cos my parents should’ve been in jail (and soon hopefully will be).

[Brewer_s_Droop]

To clarify, I mean that I trust health care professionals over parents in a substantial amount of cases.

[stir_fried_ewok]

gender reassignment is not an issue that has any relevance at all to the invasion of Ukraine or the US election. such issues can only ever be considered on a case by case basis as they are inherently complex.

this misguided influencer

will try to make you think this issue is evidence of western moral degeneration. don’t be fooled. the opposite is in fact true, as we have setup a system that provides care and support and acceptance.

my experience with this (one person only) is the same as wimm’s.

[planb]

The effects of puberty blockers are still being studied and there are opposing views in the medical industry.

The UK has banned the prescription of puberty blockers for those under 18.

[jonovdp]

@Benny40

Gender reassignment surgery on under 18s is extraordinarily rare. We are talking maybe 200 cases per year, although my memory is fuzzy and it could have been 200 cases over a few years. Of that number, almost all of them were to give the kid the correct genitals for their genetic gender, not to change it. So we are talking a handful of genuine reassignment surgeries, which to me screams a politicisation of a very very rare medical procedure.

Majority of people don’t understand intersex and don’t want to.

As you said the unlikelihood that a doctor would proceed with a surgery for a young person who is trans. Doctors will advise to wait until they’re 18.

Intersex is when a person has the sexual anatomy of both sexes, neither sex, or in between. The good ol days, the Doctor would just make a decision at birth of what sex the baby is, and proceed with the surgery.

It’s a complex ethical scenario, than just “child mutilation”. Far too complex for the dimwitted Trump and his supporters.

[bigallan]

TBF it wasn’t until after Zelensky won the Presidency in 2019 that there was more support for Ukraine, other than some relatively mild sanctions and condemnation in UN bodies.
IMO any proxy war began with the Russian invasion of Ukraine beyond the Russian occupied territories.
I am uncomfortable with support for Ukraine being identified as a proxy war. US military support for other countries is not usually defined in this way.
It’s more that the US ascribes pariah status to certain countries and assists other countries threatened by the Pariah.
As to sheeting blame to a President for any particular actions, the bits are always left out in regard to the influence of Congress in foreign policy actions.

[Benny40]

@planb

The effects of puberty blockers are still being studied and there are opposing views in the medical industry.

The UK has banned the prescription of puberty blockers for those under 18.

Ok. So what’s your alternative plan for preventing the huge suicide rate of that young population?

[theDJR]

@planb

At the age of 18 you’re in a better position to make significant life altering decisions.

Which doesn’t include using a public toilet, ever.

[planb]

Counselling and mental health services.